The door, the key and the pickaxe

[mpriestnall]

I already posted that the police were not looking for an alternate means of entry, they were told to wait, so that is all they did.



We are told the photographer was permitted entry following a brief investigation of the room, which took place subsequent to the door being forced.

Do you believe everything you are told?

[Wickerman]

My point is there was no need to analyze, the broken window was in arms length to the door and therefore the lock could be reached. They just did not want to is my view. Your view was a possibility, but we do not know if it came to somebody's mind or not .

You're still missing the point.
No-one had a key!
It doesn't matter how close the lock was to the window, without the key it was irrelevant.

[Wickerman]

Do you believe everything you are told?

Dr. Phillips, the divisional surgeon of police, soon arrived, and was followed by Dr. Bond, of Westminster, divisional surgeon of the A division, Dr. J. R. Gabe, of Mecklenburgh-square, and two or three other surgeons. They made a preliminary examination of the body and sent for a photographer, who made several photographs of the remains.
Morning Advertiser, 10 Nov. 1888.

While this examination was being made a photographer, who, in the meantime, had been sent for, arrived and took photographs of the body, the organs, the room, and its contents.
Times, 10 Nov. 1888.

As opposed to what Martyn, modern speculation?

[Wickerman]

These are pics of the type of lock from the period - Spring Lock, originally posted by Bob Hinton about 20 yrs ago.

The lock from the inside of the door - one of those circular 'button's, I think the right-hand one, is what slides to unlock the spring-lock.

The 'button' is about the size of a Penny coin and it only slides a little - about 1/2 inch or so.

[Wickerman]

Ah, correction - the left pic shows the bolt withdrawn, the door slightly open.
The right pic shows the bolt extended (locked).
Notice the position of the left (larger) 'button', it has moved slightly.
So, it must be the left 'button' that is the slide-lock to unlock the spring.
Sorry about that.

Also, the smaller right-hand button looks a little lower in the right pic. - perhaps it slide up-down?

[Wickerman]

Bob did explain the movement of those 'button's in his next post.

"This shows the interior of the lock. The two knobs are: Large left for withdrawing the bolt by slicing to left, Small right: for locking bolt in either open or closed position. This picture shows the bolt in the locked closed position. If the door is pulled to in this position it will not lock this is known as leaving it on the latch."

[Michael W Richards]

I think youve established that the photos were taken after the arrival of the physicians, so....not between 11:30 and 1pm. That is not some kind of explanation for the actions of the men who were there before the physicians arrived. You didnt read people entered the room so then it doesnt cross your mind to wonder if thats accurate? Ok.

[Wickerman]

I think youve established that the photos were taken after the arrival of the physicians, so....not between 11:30 and 1pm. That is not some kind of explanation for the actions of the men who were there before the physicians arrived. You didnt read people entered the room so then it doesnt cross your mind to wonder if thats accurate? Ok.

Inspector Beck:
"I was the first police officer called to 13 Millers Court by McCarthy. I sent for the Doctor and closed the Court to all persons, I do not know by whose order the door was forced, I was there, the doctor was the first to enter the room it was shortly after 11 o'clock when I was called".

Dr. Phillips:
"...Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time I remained until about 1.30 when the door was broken open I think by Mr McCarthy."

Inspector Abberline:
"I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the dogs had been sent for, Dr Phillips asked me not to force the door but to test the dogs if they were coming, we remained until 1.30 when Superintendant Arnold arrived & informed me that the order as to dogs had been countermanded and he gave directions for the door to be forced".

So, Insp. Beck was in charge of the scene following the discovery, Phillips arrived about 11:15, followed by Abberline about 11:30, who then took charge of the scene.
Beck was responsible for containing the scene and protecting it while they wait for Scotland Yard to arrive.
Insp. Beck is not responsible for finding a way in to the room, his position is to maintain the scene. He was also apparently told to await the arrival of the Bloodhounds, so naturally he cannot give orders to disturb any available scent remaining within the room.

What are you saying? - everybody except Beck, Phillips & Abberline were looking for a way in before 1:30?
On what grounds?

[Michael W Richards]

Inspector Beck:
"I was the first police officer called to 13 Millers Court by McCarthy. I sent for the Doctor and closed the Court to all persons, I do not know by whose order the door was forced, I was there, the doctor was the first to enter the room it was shortly after 11 o'clock when I was called".

Dr. Phillips:
"...Having ascertained that probably it was advisable that no entrance should be made into the room at that time I remained until about 1.30 when the door was broken open I think by Mr McCarthy."

Inspector Abberline:
"I had an intimation from Inspector Beck that the dogs had been sent for, Dr Phillips asked me not to force the door but to test the dogs if they were coming, we remained until 1.30 when Superintendant Arnold arrived & informed me that the order as to dogs had been countermanded and he gave directions for the door to be forced".

So, Insp. Beck was in charge of the scene following the discovery, Phillips arrived about 11:15, followed by Abberline about 11:30, who then took charge of the scene.
Beck was responsible for containing the scene and protecting it while they wait for Scotland Yard to arrive.
Insp. Beck is not responsible for finding a way in to the room, his position is to maintain the scene. He was also apparently told to await the arrival of the Bloodhounds, so naturally he cannot give orders to disturb any available scent remaining within the room.

What are you saying? - everybody except Beck, Phillips & Abberline were looking for a way in before 1:30?
On what grounds?

This seems to indicate you really believe someone actually thought bloodhounds were still available. And waited 2 1/2 hours on that premise. Keystone cops these fellas huh?

[Michael W Richards]

"In order to arrive at the truth of the conflicting statements which have appeared as to the use or non use of bloodhounds in the attempts to track the murderer of Marie Janet Kelly, the last Whitechapel victim, a representative of the Central News had an interview with Mr. K W Taunton on the subject yesterday evening. It will be remembered that at Sir Charles Warren's request Mr. Brough, the well known bloodhound breeder, of Scarborough, was communicated with shortly after the Mitre square and Berner street tragedies, and asked to bring a couple of trained hounds to London for the purpose of testing their capabilities in the way of following the scent of a man. The hounds were named Burgho and Barnaby, and in one of the trials Sir Charles Warren himself acted as the quarry, and expressed satisfaction at the result. Arrangements were made for the immediate conveyance of the animals to the spot in the event of another murder occurring, and in order to facilitate matters Mr. Brough, who was compelled to return to Scarborough, left the hounds in the care of Mr. Taunton of 8 Doughty street. Mr. Taunton said: After the trial in Regent's Park, Burgho was sent to Brighton, where he had been entered for the show, which lasted three days. In the meantime Barnaby remained in my care. Burgho would have been sent back to me, but as Brough could not get anything definite from the police he declined to send the dog, and wrote asking me to return Barnaby. I did not do so at first, but acting on my own responsibility, retained possession of the dog for some time longer. About a fortnight ago I received a telegram from Leman street Police station asking me to bring up the hounds. It was then shortly after noon, and I took Barnaby at once. On arriving at the station, I was told by the superintendent that a burglary had been committed about five o'clock that morning in Commercial street, and I was asked to attempt to track the thief by means of the dog. The police admitted that since the burglary they had been all over the premises. I pointed out the stupidity of expecting a dog to accomplish anything under such circumstances and after such a length of time had been allowed to elapse, and took the animal home. I wrote telling Mr. Brough of this, and he wired insisting that the dog should be sent back at once, as the danger of its being poisoned if it were known that the police were trying to trace burglars by its aid was very great, and Mr. Brough had no guarantee against any pecuniary loss in the event of the animal being maltreated. Therefore there has not been a "police bloodhound" - that is to say, a trained hound - in London for the past fortnight. The origin of the tale regarding the hounds being lost at Tooting whilst being practised in tracing a man I can only account for in the following way: I had arranged to take Barnaby out to Hemel Hempstead to give the hound some practice. The same day a sheep was maliciously killed on Tooting Common, and the police wired to London asking that the hounds might be sent down. I was then some miles away from London with Barnaby, and did not get the telegram until my return late in the evening. Somebody, doubtless, remarked that the hounds were missing, meaning that they did not arrive when sent for, and this was magnified into a report that they had been lost. At the time Burgho was at Scarborough. Under the circumstances in which the body of Marie Janet Kelly was found I don't think bloodhounds would have been of any use. It was then broad daylight and the streets crowded with people. The only chance the hounds would have would be in the event of a murdered body being discovered, as the others were, in the small hours of the morning and being put on the trail before many people were about."

Evening News, Nov 13th

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Times, 10th November 1888, reported Superintendent Thomas Arnold sending a telegram to Sir Charles Warren from Whitechapel at some time after 11.00 am. But according to Robert Anderson, at a few minutes after 11.00 am Superintendent Arnold was with him at Scotland Yard.

"However," Anderson told Arthur Brisbane of the New York Sun, "as Superintendent Arnold was just then with me, I asked him what he thought, and he begged me not to send the hounds: that it would only lead to mischief.”

Echo, 12th November 1888—

“The Press Association says – ‘It is stated that an officer was waiting at Leman Street police station for six or seven hours on Friday for the hounds which had been telegraphed for. There are reasons to believe that Sir Charles Warren was at this time out of town, and in his absence no one knew where the animals were, or how they could be obtained.’”

Sir Charles Warren was not out of town. He was at Scotland Yard. The dogs were not on their way, as Inspector Beck intimated to Abberline; nor, as Superintendent Arnold had informed Abberline, because the order had been countermanded.

The bloodhounds had been returned. There never were any bloodhounds to send.

The whole bloodhound story is BS.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

This seems to indicate you really believe someone actually thought bloodhounds were still available. And waited 2 1/2 hours on that premise. Keystone cops these fellas huh?

"Someone" did, the fact there had been a miscommunication over the hounds is totally irrelevant to what was going on in Millers Court on the 9th.

The point you 'all' seem to have overlooked is Inspector Beck, being the only one in charge prior to the arrival of Abberline, was the one who had the authority to send for the hounds. Which only means he would send an officer to Leman street to request the hounds be brought. At which point the telegram (referred to) was sent.
Clearly, in my view Beck was not aware of the miscommunication over the use of the hounds - should there be a subsequent murder.
The officer waited at Leman street "for several hours" for the hounds to be brought.

Obviously then, there was no B.S. about the hounds, the official screw-up between the top brass was never fed down the pipe to the officers on patrol.

If any of you Bloodhound conspiracists ever work for a large company you will always find one manager expecting something to happen, that another manager knows is not going to happen. It's generally called "the left-hand not knowing what the right-hand is doing", it's extremely common, especially with large corporations and equally with the Metropolitan Police.

Insp. Beck, Dr. Phillips & Insp. Abberline all believed the hounds were to be made available - the fact they were all mistaken has no bearing on why the crime scene was not entered until the arrival of Arnold at 1:30 pm.

[Varqm]

You're still missing the point.
No-one had a key!
It doesn't matter how close the lock was to the window, without the key it was irrelevant.

Then how did Barnett came to the conclusion it was easy to open, they lost the key.

[mpriestnall]

Deleted.

[Michael W Richards]

Then how did Barnett came to the conclusion it was easy to open, they lost the key.

Because after they lost the key they didnt lock the door handle, just used the spring latch when coming in and going out. Wick seems to think the door handle was locked, but there was no key to do so. The locked room declaration refers to a door locked by virtue of an internal lock mechanism, which was easily accessed via the window. Which Mary or Barnett likely didnt reveal to anyone.

So no-one needed a key to open that door. Wick would have you believe 2 1/2 hours isnt enough time for the people there to figure out what was what. And naive enough to believe that in that time no-one attempted entry, regardless of what is officially said.