Cross Bones Girl - History Cold Case

[curious4]

Dragging myself off my sickbed to recommend this episode of History Cold Case for anyone who hasn't seen it and wants to see how it was to be a prostitute and infected with syphilis in the 1800s.

Very moving episode as well, I thought, and brings home the very sad situation these girls/women found themselves in.

Best wishes,
C4

[RivkahChaya]

Dragging myself off my sickbed to recommend this episode of History Cold Case for anyone who hasn't seen it and wants to see how it was to be a prostitute and infected with syphilis in the 1800s. [emp. added]

Well, there I go. That's actually on my to-do list. I've been wanting that for a long time. I still also want to catch the Ebola virus, and buy an Edsel. Just let me remove this sharp stick from my eye.

I'm sorry. I'm sure it's wonderful, and I probably won't watch it, because it'll depress me too much. It was just the funny way you phrased it, as though you were talking about fantasy camp, rather than just learning about a part of history.

What is "History Cold Case"? I mean, yes, a TV show, but is it about historic unsolved crimes, or does at look at other mysteries too, like the Roanoke settlers (yes, I know, they just moved, and then died out; not exciting)?

ETA: I Googled "crossbones girl" just to find our what the basic story was, and it seems the whole ep. is on youtube.

[RivkahChaya]

I watched it on youtube, and I must be really jaded, because I didn't find it all that disturbing. I lost a lot of friends to AIDS in the late 80s & 90s, though, when I wasn't much older than the subject of the documentary, so what're some syphilis pox compared to Kaposi's sarcoma, really?

I'm sorry: yes, she had a very short and sad life. It doesn't shock me that people have short and sad lives, so maybe something is wrong with me. I did enjoy it, as a very well-done documentary, and quite interesting.

It's probably a UK, or maybe just British thing, but I like the restrained, "Well, this could be her, although we can't say for sure, but at any rate, someone like her. Probably." In a US documentary, they'd be all "Woo-hoo! found the grail! open the Champagne! we're the man!"

[curious4]

Empathy

Dear Rivkah,

Yes, always a good idea to inform yourself before commenting. However, I cannot quite accept your parallel between a child being infected with syphilis after a rape, (they came to the conclusion that it was not congenital and that she must have been infected as a child) and aids sufferers in the 1980s, however tragic their fate. Or that having sympathy for one precludes having sympathy for the other.

I also found the reconstruction of her face, and those of others suffering from syphilis particularly interesting. It is one thing to read about the effects - loss of nose etc - and to actually see it.

Your post did raise one important question. Is empathy a prerequisite for Ripperologists?

I think that it is. Perhaps we should have a poll on this?

All good wishes,
C4

[RivkahChaya]

However, I cannot quite accept your parallel between a child being infected with syphilis after a rape, (they came to the conclusion that it was not congenital and that she must have been infected as a child) and aids sufferers in the 1980s, however tragic their fate.

That's not quite what I meant. I just meant that I didn't find facial reconstructions of people with tertiary syphilis all that shocking. And, if you are implying what I think you are implying, remember, that people who died of AIDS in the late 1980s, after contracting it sexually, had no opportunity to practice safe sex, because the information was available.

But you are also discounting the fact that a lot of people who died 1985-1995, in the US at any rate, were hemophiliacs who were infected as children through blood products used as treatment for their disease.

One thing that was as interesting as it was appalling, was the idea that men could get rid of syphilis by having sex with a virgin.

The exact same belief, only relating to HIV, not syphilis, is prevalent in some African countries right now and toddlers have been raped because of it. Clearly, thins seems to make sense for some people, but it fails me completely. It makes more sense to me that the myth has popped up at all, since it is just a refinement of an old myth about syphilis, and the belief has not popped up out of nowhere, and I suppose I can see that in a time when a lot less was understood about medicine, all kinds of folk beliefs made the rounds. I'm still not really sure how this one came about, exactly.

[curious4]

Empathy

Rivkah,

Please don't quote words taken out of context from my posts and thus warp the original meaning. Not "fair play" as we english would say.

C4

[RivkahChaya]

Please don't quote words taken out of context from my posts and thus warp the original meaning. Not "fair play" as we english would say.

I'm not sure how to respond, as I'm not even sure what I did to upset you.

I quoted the part of your post I was responding to, and not the whole thing, since anyone who wanted could scroll up and see the original.

I also wasn't trying to draw a parallel between the cross-bones girl, and people with AIDS. My point was that I almost didn't watch the show, because you said it was upsetting. I thought it was very sad, but not really upsetting, and maybe it's because I have known a lot of people with facial disfigurements, not the least of which were some people I knew when I was in my 20s, who had Kaposi's sarcoma.

Maybe you just meant the facts of her life were upsetting, but I'm from Manhattan, New York, and I've been a social worker. That's not even the saddest story I've ever heard; I've dealt with some people in very sad situations, and it's really not a question of whether or not one has empathy-- I was the person who had to say "Here's where we are; where can we go, and what can we do that makes this better." So, I could be very jaded, or just conditioned to stay practical.

[MsWeatherwax]

Dragging myself off my sickbed to recommend this episode of History Cold Case for anyone who hasn't seen it and wants to see how it was to be a prostitute and infected with syphilis in the 1800s.

Very moving episode as well, I thought, and brings home the very sad situation these girls/women found themselves in.

Best wishes,
C4

Thanks for posting this, Curious4. I've only (fairly) recently heard about Cross Bones, and I find anything connected with it really interesting.

[miss marple]

loved all the cold cases, but the Cross Bones girl was very poignant because it points to a wider abuse in the 19th century. She contracted syphilis as a child.

Children were abused in brothels from about 4 or 5 Thousands of children disappeared into the sex industry. No one cared about these homeless orphaned children . Sometimes even middle class children could be abducted by brothel keepers posing as kindly old ladies.Men believed sex with a virgin would 'cure' syphilis and would pay a premium for a very young virgin. As in Africa today some people still believe sleeping with a virgin cures aids

The age of consent was 12, for most of the 19th century until it was raised partly due to the efforts of W.T Stead and the Pall Mall Gazette

[RivkahChaya]

She also could have been a child conceived in prostitution. A lot of girls who were the daughters of prostitutes went into the same profession, and did so very young. Ironically, if their mothers worked in brothels, their early childhoods were actually a little better than children of a similar socio-economic class. They had regular meals, shelter, heat in the winter. I do remember reading something about their mothers being discouraged from teaching them to read and write (if they could), or sending them to an available school, if there were one, though, so they wouldn't have the means to do some other kind of work.

That's US data, but it's from around the same time, and I'm guessing that Britain was fairly similar.

BTW, did coroners in 1888 have the means to diagnose syphilis post-mortem, if there were not obvious signs, like lesions on the face? Did anyone ever ascertain for a fact, one way or the other, whether MJK had syphilis?

[curious4]

loved all the cold cases, but the Cross Bones girl was very poignant because it points to a wider abuse in the 19th century. She contracted syphilis as a child.

Children were abused in brothels from about 4 or 5 Thousands of children disappeared into the sex industry. No one cared about these homeless orphaned children . Sometimes even middle class children could be abducted by brothel keepers posing as kindly old ladies.Men believed sex with a virgin would 'cure' syphilis and would pay a premium for a very young virgin. As in Africa today some people still believe sleeping with a virgin cures aids

The age of consent was 12, for most of the 19th century until it was raised partly due to the efforts of W.T Stead and the Pall Mall Gazette

Hello miss M,

Yes Mayhew covers this and, of course there was the "Maiden Tribute" and the four-year-old who had been raped several times and who screamed in terror when she saw Stead's beard and begged him not to hurt her. Quite horrific and even more so that this sort of thing is still going on.

Best wishes,
C4

[C W Davies]

Hi all, appreciate that some time has passed since this thread but I have only recently watched the episode being discussed. Does anyone know whether any further work has been done on Elizabeth Mitchell ?

Many thanks

[TheTypeWriter]

Dragging myself off my sickbed to recommend this episode of History Cold Case for anyone who hasn't seen it and wants to see how it was to be a prostitute and infected with syphilis in the 1800s.

Very moving episode as well, I thought, and brings home the very sad situation these girls/women found themselves in.

Best wishes,
C4

Hello there thanks for the recommendation, I'd like to check out this programme you mention. Would it be on bbc iPlayer I wonder. It's really so very sad what women and girls went through back then.

[C W Davies]

Hello, Im not sure if your question has been addressed , I think Carries Sicca, where the bones are attacked by the disease ( Tertiary) are visible post mortem, hope this helps

CW

BTW, did coroners in 1888 have the means to diagnose syphilis post-mortem, if there were not obvious signs, like lesions on the face? [/QUOTE]