Ordnance Survey Axes Jack the Ripper Walks

[barnflatwyngarde]

The Sunday Times today has reported that Ordnance Survey have removed the JTR Walk from its map library.

Apparently the walk was listed under the title "Guts and Garters in the East End", in my opinion a ridiculous and insensitive name for such a walk.

Hallie Rubenhold is quoted as saying, " Jack the Ripper tours have existed since the day of the first murder, but just because we did it a long time ago doesn't make it right."

A dissenting voice was that of Rupert Wheeler, chairman of the Spitalfields Society, who said, "it's part of the area and it isn't going to go away just because yoiu don't want to talk about it."

Oh well, it's been a strange year.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

"Guts and Garters" us a ridiculous name, and quite frankly out dated, so it's no wonder OS have dropped it. Assuming the reason was moral and not purely a commercial consideration.

Rubenhold has been quite vocal on the subject, kind of implying that all walk hosts are dressed up in top hats and capes, going over the top with the gruesome aspects, which I've no doubt has been the case at some points, but it's not a fair reflection on today's hosts.

Mr Wheeler is right though, it's not going away. But it can evolve. Current tours focus much more on the social history, and treat the subject with empathy in a way that tries to respectfully portray what was and is still an incredibly diverse and important area. Definitely time to drop the tacky names. Take note, Jack The Clipper barbers, Jack The Chipper fish and chips and any business based on a tasteless pun.

[seanr]

I agree with Hallie on this. I work in the area and in non-COVID times would frequently see these walks. Currently, it is as though many make a folk hero of the violent murderer and it is despicable. 'Guts and Garters' is particularly lurid.

The history isn't going away and the locations cannot and should not be removed from what happened there, but there's so much more to the local history like how the people lived in the Lodging Houses, fledgling trade union movements and the match girl strikes in 1888. Wentworth Buildings is interesting and significant as an example of social housing, beyond only its few minutes of fame at the site of the graffito, as just one example.

It's appropriate for history walks to cover the murders, but to focus on them alone as though they are the only thing of interest to have happened there during that time seems to staggeringly miss the point of how these people lived.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hallie Rubenhold appears to want Ripper Walks banned as an entirety which I can’t understand apart from as part of the ongoing agenda. Of course ‘Guts and Garters’ is a poor choice of title and we can and should do without things like Jack the Ripper t-shirts but I think that we are in danger of disappearing into a permanent self-flagellation mode in an attempt to make ourselves more ‘acceptable’ to some. People are interested in true crime as a subject; they read whodunnit’s; they watch movies based on crime; they buy books, it’s not a sign that we think that the ripper was a top bloke. If we ban walks do we next ban books on the subject or documentaries or movies or Internet forums.

I don’t think that there’s anything in the slightest wrong with a walk based on The Whitechapel Murders. Yes it would be preferable to have the more of the social history thrown in too but we have to accept that some people are interested in the crimes as a whodunnit but maybe not so much about social history. Much as we would hope to interest people in that aspect we can’t and shouldn’t attempt to force it onto them. When all is said and done people shouldn’t be treated as children. No-one is forced to hand over their money and trudge around Whitechapel after all. Of course Sean is absolutely correct that there was so much of interest going on at the time (social housing, match girl strike etc) and there are different walks encompassing different topics but they can’t all be squeezes into a two hour walk.

Perhaps I’m slightly on the defensive here but I think that we have good reason for wariness. After The Five and its blatant and ongoing agenda there’s an attempt by the PC brigade to chip away at the subject and at us; to insult and belittle. Some of the loathsome things said about ripperlogists would have caused hysterics had they been aimed the other way. So I’m more inclined to tell them to sod off and stop trying to tell people what to think and do.

[rjpalmer]

but I think that we are in danger of disappearing into a permanent self-flagellation mode in an attempt to make ourselves more ‘acceptable’ to some.

Well, if you ever change your mind, and decide to slip into self-flagellation mode, I'm willing to sell you a genuine "Jack the Whipper," self-chastisement flail for only $99 US + taxes.

Have a happy holiday, Michael.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well, if you ever change your mind, and decide to slip into self-flagellation mode, I'm willing to sell you a genuine "Jack the Whipper," self-chastisement flail for only $99 US + taxes.

Have a happy holiday, Michael.

Cheers Roger

Happy holiday to you too.

[Wickerman]

What about other 'murder' walks, is Rubenhold & co. trying to shut them down too?

https://www.murdermiletours.com/blog/category/murder-mile

What about touring the Tower of London,..

https://www.mylondon.news/whats-on/arts-culture-news/kray-twins-guy-fawkes-9-15708710

or is state controlled torture & murder acceptable?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What about other 'murder' walks, is Rubenhold & co. trying to shut them down too?

https://www.murdermiletours.com/blog/category/murder-mile

What about touring the Tower of London,..

https://www.mylondon.news/whats-on/arts-culture-news/kray-twins-guy-fawkes-9-15708710

or is state controlled torture & murder acceptable?

Dont give them ideas Wick. The statue-breakers and monument-defacers already want to redact history to make it more ‘palatable.’ Some even want to end any mention of war in schools as it’s too upsetting a subject! It’s a worrying trend and many are too wary of speaking out against it because it brings out a torrent of name-calling and branding. You can almost hear “burn the witch!”

[seanr]

Guts and Garters has been removed from the Ordinance Survey listings at the request of the AA. Given it was being displayed as ‘AA Walks: Guts and Garters’, the AA seem perfectly within their rights to ask to no longer be associated with this.

It was the only walk listed for Whitechapel and Spitalfields in the OS listings and now it is removed, there are now none for the area at all. Despite other historical walks operating in the area and a rich history to draw from, it was only ‘Guts and Garters’ that ended up being promoted by Ordinance Survey and the AA. A disappointing state of affairs, surely?

No-one is calling for the walks to be banned. ‘Guts and Garters’ has not been banned. Hallie has not called for it to be banned. She has spoken favourably on Twitter of the walks offered by Beyond Streets and Look Up London. So, it is unreasonable to project a position onto her that she wishes to ban all (or indeed any of) the walks.

Then lumping in debates about statues that weren’t even under discussion here (but for the record, no longer glorifying slave traders as an example of the very best of us, does seem like the right thing for us to be doing) and whataboutery on other walks not under discussion, does seem to make you seem rather reactionary. You do seem to be in danger of setting up a strawman argument against some imagined state where all discussion of the case, violence against women and war is somehow verboten. You’re arguing against an absurd position that no-one, literally no-one is advancing.

Hallie’s comments reported in the Times are quite clearly directed at ‘Guts and Garters’ and the walks of its kind, what is described in the words of current Mayor of Tower Hamlets, John Biggs as 'the commercialisation of violence against women and girls'. Hallie has questioned whether this is right. It isn’t, is it?
I think she is right on this and it'd be silly to argue the opposing case.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is no straw man argument at all Sean. What we’ve had is a very real and very obvious ongoing agenda carried out by Rubenhold and her supporters. If it doesn’t bother you to be lied about and labelled with words like ‘misogynist’ you then fair enough but it bothers some of us. We have to roll over and accept it though because of the prevailing wind which is entirely in her favour and which is founded in political correctness.

You say that I seem ‘rather reactionary?’ I’m actually I life long Labour voter and someone who has always opposed the reactionary attitudes of those on the right but when I see people pulling down statues my reaction is that every single one of them should have been arrested. There are ways of campaigning to get statues moved (to a museum for example) so why should it be ok to just select something that we don’t like and then destroy it. Where does it end? I only raised the point in the first place Sean because there’s a gradual chipping away going on. There’s a section in society who have decided that they are the arbiters of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable and we are tacitly letting them get away with it.

We have to accept, from Rubenhold in The Final Chapter by Matthew Bortwick:

. “Ripperology is a cult and they see themselves as the keepers of the flame,” she claims. “There’s so much sexism and misogyny in this cult,

or this casual, throwaway line from Waterstone’s:

. ...the glorified vision of ‘Jack’,

Im going to leave this discussion now. To be honest the debate is over and we’ve lost. Rubenhold and her supporters have piled on the dishonesty and she’s gone virtually unchallenged. Best not to get annoyed about it anymore I suppose. Who’s going to listen to a bunch of sexist misogynists after all.

[spyglass]

I'm in full agreement, I regard myself left wing and abit woke on certain subjects.
But Rubenhold and her supporters leaves me seething and angry.
You say shes been " left mainly unchallenged " ...but why is this ?
I would love to see her in debate with just one real expert on the case....it would make great TV and maybe just maybe it would give her supporters something to think on.

Regards

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm in full agreement, I regard myself left wing and abit woke on certain subjects.
But Rubenhold and her supporters leaves me seething and angry.
You say shes been " left mainly unchallenged " ...but why is this ?
I would love to see her in debate with just one real expert on the case....it would make great TV and maybe just maybe it would give her supporters something to think on.

Regards

Hi Spyglass,

Id say that there’s more chance of Barbara Cartland winning a posthumous Nobel Prize for Literature than there is of Hallie Rubenhold discussing/debating the subject with a Ripperologist. Even someone as respected as Paul Begg for example. It’s easy to get treated as an ‘expert’ on a subject when you’re only conversing with people who know little or nothing about that subject. It’s a nice trick if you can manage it. She’s named her ‘bad guys,’ eliminated all dissenting voices and found her audience of people who like her ‘message’ and who want to be part of a worthy ‘cause’ and who are not in the least bit interested in finding out whether it’s true or not. Add an army of unquestioning, uncritical reviewers and bingo.....St Hallie vs the Mysogynistic Jack The Ripper Fans.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Spyglass,

Id say that there’s more chance of Barbara Cartland winning a posthumous Nobel Prize for Literature than there is of Hallie Rubenhold discussing/debating the subject with a Ripperologist. Even someone as respected as Paul Begg for example. It’s easy to get treated as an ‘expert’ on a subject when you’re only conversing with people who know little or nothing about that subject. It’s a nice trick if you can manage it. She’s named her ‘bad guys,’ eliminated all dissenting voices and found her audience of people who like her ‘message’ and who want to be part of a worthy ‘cause’ and who are not in the least bit interested in finding out whether it’s true or not. Add an army of unquestioning, uncritical reviewers and bingo.....St Hallie vs the Mysogynistic Jack The Ripper Fans.

According to HR, before ‘The Five’, apart from a slim booklet, nothing had ever been written about the victims.

Hardly anyone has made any effort to challenge her on this.

[Herlock Sholmes]

According to HR, before ‘The Five’, apart from a slim booklet, nothing had ever been written about the victims.

Hardly anyone has made any effort to challenge her on this.

True. She’s had a clear run. I don’t do social media but I’ve heard that she blocks anyone that says anything that she doesn’t like?

[MrBarnett]

True. She’s had a clear run. I don’t do social media but I’ve heard that she blocks anyone that says anything that she doesn’t like?

Yes, a few of us were blocked on Twitter. She indulged Trevor for a while because he reinforced the caricature she was portraying.