The gas lamp in Miller's Court

[Frank]

Reading the article "Dorset Street Revisited" (Ripperologist 97) I was intrigued by the following lines:
Lighting in the court was patchy. There was a gas wall-lamp directly opposite the door to Mary’s room, which was alight until around 4am., the light from which is thrown nearly on to the passage and which would certainly have thrown light on Mary’s door.14
The according footnote 14 refers to The Scotsman, November 10th, 1888. But I couldn't find a reference to the gas lamp being alight until 4am. Is there any corroboration for this statement?
Since 4am is around the time the cry of "murder" was heard by two witnesses, it would also be of interest, who turned off the lamp.

[Wickerman]

Reading the article "Dorset Street Revisited" (Ripperologist 97) I was intrigued by the following lines:
Lighting in the court was patchy. There was a gas wall-lamp directly opposite the door to Mary’s room, which was alight until around 4am., the light from which is thrown nearly on to the passage and which would certainly have thrown light on Mary’s door.14
The according footnote 14 refers to The Scotsman, November 10th, 1888. But I couldn't find a reference to the gas lamp being alight until 4am. Is there any corroboration for this statement?
Since 4am is around the time the cry of "murder" was heard by two witnesses, it would also be of interest, who turned off the lamp.

I can't be sure but 5 will get you 10 that this 4:00 am is an assumption taken from the testimony of Elizabeth Prater.
It is questionable.

We have another statement, by Bowyer, that the shop stayed open late into the early morning, sometimes until 3:00 am.
No reference to the light, but as the source of the gas may well have come via McCarthy's shop it is likely that the light was put out whenever the shop was closed. No real set time.
Other witnesses claim the cry of "murder" was before 4:00 am, so Prater's time is not beyond dispute.

Regards, Jon S.

[Stephen Thomas]

Yes, there was a gaslight more or less outside Kelly's door.

Who paid for it?

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, there was a gaslight more or less outside Kelly's door.

Who paid for it?

I believe the gas lamp was directly opposite Marys door Stephen, thereby making it attached to number 27 Dorset, and therefore, the responsibility of Mr McCarthy to pay for.

One might imagine opening the door at a late hour and having a bright light halo around the visitor, lit from behind, and also obscuring the face.

"Oh-murder", what do you want?

Cheers

[Frank]

Thanks for the quick replies. The lamp was indeed direct opposite to Mary's door. When it was turned out at some time in the night, there must have been someone to turn it out. This person could be another person of interest at the scene of crime, but most probably it was McCarthy himself.

[Chris Scott]

I think the sentence you quote should be taken to mean that the light was turned out by 4am every night as a matter of course (though by whom is not known) and that on the morning of the murder that the light had been extinguished by about 4 a.m. This info comes from Elizabeth Prater - indeed it was the time by which the light was usually out that she used to estimate the time.
To quote from "Will the Real Mary Kelly...?"


Elizabeth Prater said she heard two or three such cries at 3.30 or 4.00 a.m. She had just been woken and how she estimated this time is not known from her police statement. However, in her inquest testimony this statement is qualified in two respects, as she deposed "I noticed the lodging house light was out, so it was after four probably. It is nothing uncommon to hear cries of murder so I took no notice - I did not hear it a second time.*"

As she was looking out of a rear window - and states elsewhere that lodging house lights to the rear of No 27 were usually visible from that window - then the "lodging house light" she refers to is very probably the gas lamp opposite Kelly's room.

[Robert]

I suppose there would have existed somewhere in the original police notes a statement such as "The room was quiet and in darkness when I turned off the gas lamp." There would have been all kinds of interesting things in those notes, now all lost to us.

[Michael W Richards]

As she was looking out of a rear window - and states elsewhere that lodging house lights to the rear of No 27 were usually visible from that window - then the "lodging house light" she refers to is very probably the gas lamp opposite Kelly's room.

Many if not most assume she was talking about Crossingham's Chris, Im pleased to see someone recognize that she lived in a "lodging house" herself.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

As she was looking out of a rear window -

As Prater occupied the front room, 2nd floor, and "another couple" apparently lived above Kelly, it has yet to be established whether Prater could see into the backyard at all.

Many if not most assume she was talking about Crossingham's Chris, Im pleased to see someone recognize that she lived in a "lodging house" herself.

Cheers

"Most"?, I would hope not Michael. Prater makes reference to the backyard in Millers Court as the "back of the lodging-house". in her pre-inquest statement.


Regards, Jon S.

[Stephen Thomas]

As she was looking out of a rear window - and states elsewhere that lodging house lights to the rear of No 27 were usually visible from that window - then the "lodging house light" she refers to is very probably the gas lamp opposite Kelly's room.

With the greatest respect, Chris, this is simply wrong.

She wasn't looking out of a rear window. Her room overlooked Dorset Street.

The 'lodging house light' is that of Crossinghams across the road from her room.

Prater makes no comment whatsoever regarding lights at the back of #26.

[Chris Scott]

With the greatest respect, Chris, this is simply wrong.

She wasn't looking out of a rear window. Her room overlooked Dorset Street.

The 'lodging house light' is that of Crossinghams across the road from her room.

Prater makes no comment whatsoever regarding lights at the back of #26.

Hi Stephen
The problematic statement by Prater is in her police statement on the day of the murder, not her inquest testimony on 12th.
The crucial section reads with reference to the cries of murder:-
""I did not take much notice of such cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Miller's Court."
How could that be referring to a lodging house on the other side of Dorset Street?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

Thanks for posting that Chris, and as you can see Jon, with all due respect to Stephen, there are people who believe that Elizabeth's room was over the shed, on the front ground level, and therefore any window she had overlooked Dorset Street. Many believe she did not have a window onto the courtyard.

Her statement of hearing cries "as if from the court" along with the piece Chris posted seems to indicate that she did have a courtyard facing window...even if part of her room was over the shed. Which Im not sure is indicated here.

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Hi again,

Thanks for posting that Chris, and as you can see Jon, with all due respect to Stephen, there are people who believe that Elizabeth's room was over the shed,

Hi Michael.
There is a tad more than a belief involved. It is specifically stated that Prater occupied the front room (No.20), over the shed.
"..Elizabeth Prater, the occupant of the first floor front room,.."

Conversely, there is no claim that Prater's room also overlooked the back yard. That has been an assumption all along.
Prater lived at the front, 1st floor, over the shed, facing Dorset St.

So who did live over Kelly?

"..and the couple in the room overhead had slept soundly without being awakened by scuffling in the room beneath them."
Daily Telegraph, 10 Nov.

Unfortunately, they are never identified.

Prater does identify her room as No.20, and we know Kelly lived in No.13.
Taking the layout and subsequent numbering of all the tenements in Millers Court (Ground floor-odd numbers, first floor-even numbers), we can reasonably assume the room above Kelly's was No.14.

There is an interesting hint given here..
" On the right-hand side of the passage there are two doors. The first of these leads to the upper floors of the house in which Kelly was living. It has seven rooms, the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows. A second door opens inwards, direct from the passage, into Kelly's apartment, which is about 15ft. square, and is placed at the rear corner of the building."

The way this paragraph is written it appears to say that one passage door gives access to seven rooms upstairs, while the second door only gives access to an eighth room, No. 13 at the back.
As Praters room is numbered 20, and Kelly's is 13, then there must be six more rooms to be identified.

The front view of No.26 Dorset St. shows the floors above the shed each have two windows, I suggest one window per room.




This means there were two rooms over the shed, overlooking Dorset St. on this 1st floor.
The 2nd floor also had two rooms overlooking Dorset St.
The attic likely had one room over the 2nd floor, over Dorset St. and another room at the back overlooking the court.
Finally, the room occupied by the unnamed couple who lived over Kelly was also accessible from the same passage door. That is seven rooms, all accounted for except that we do not know which was No.15-19, and we can only guess at No.14.

So there we are, and Prater never does say that she could see into the court at the back, which she couldn't.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

I've been trying to find an interview published in the press with either John McCarthy or his wife, where (I thought) one of them referred to the large lodging-house opposite which was "open all night"?

If I could locate this it would go some way towards demonstrating that Prater will not have been talking about Crossingham's light going out at 4:00 am, if the place was open all night.

Alternately, just below Prater's window was a large gas lamp. We can see three examples at the upper left side in Dorset St. in this pic.



Quote:
"...There is another well frequented lodging-house next door to M'Carthy's, and within a yard or two to the entrance to the court is a wall lamp, the light from which is thrown nearly on to the passage..."
Irish Times, 10 Nov.

Given the size of these lamps and their position hanging off the house wall, the one referred to in the quote above could be the one Prater was talking about. Tenants in the rooms facing Dorset St. would surely see the glow from these lamps through their windows at night.

Regards, Jon S.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Jon
I think we are just going to have to agree to differ:-)
I am still personally convinced that when Prater is repeatedly quoted as saying her room was "directly above that of the deceased" and that if Kelly moved about or made any noise at all "she would have been sure to hear it" then she meant just that.
I also come back to the point of the sentence I quoted earlier:
"I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court."
She could not have been talking about the lodging house opposite the entrance to Millers Court as the description "where the windows look into Millers Court" would be nonsensical.

Prater is quoted as saying:
"I live at No 20 Room in Millers Court up stairs. I lived in the room over where deceased lived."

To me that is simply unambiguous and can only logically be read in one way.