Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Black Bull, Gangs, Watney Street and Buck's Row

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Black Bull, Gangs, Watney Street and Buck's Row

    Possibly nothing but...

    Attempting to find some link between John McCarthy and East End gangs, I've found a reference to an incident at the Black Bull pub in 1902, where a John McCarthy wounded a street bookie named Meyer Edgar. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ull%22&f=false

    This John McCarthy according to the same source was 27 in 1908 (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ers%22&f=false) and was the leader of a gang called the Watney Streeters. If this is true he would have been about 21 in 1902, where he is described as the leader of the Watney Streeters. I find a 21 year old gang leader scarcely plausible.
    He seems to have lived off of Watney Street, so no real connection to the Dorset Street McCarthy seems forthcoming.

    The Watney Streeters appear to have been active by 1902 and continued to be active until around the time of the Krays and Richardson gang (George Cornell of the Richardson and later the Kray gang had previously been a Watney Streeter, according to Wikipedia).

    Meyer Edgar, the street bookie, apparently ran a billiard hall at the back of the Black Bull where unlicensed boxing matches were held. So, there is a possible link to boxing, which we know our Dorset Street McCarthy was also involved in. Could there have been boxing at the Black Bull as early as 1888? Could there have been a boxing match at the Black Bull on the night of 30th of August, 1888?

    As it turns out, the Black Bull was one of the pubs close to Buck's Row site where Polly Nichols' body was found.

    The mention of boxing, gang violence, boxing and 'John McCarthy' all in a proximity of Buck's Row was pretty intriguing. Personally, I'd been trying to find a pub with a clear gang connection in the proximity of Buck's Row for a while, so maybe just maybe I have found it.

  • #2
    Oh, and the story of the fight between the Watney Streeter John McCarthy and Eddie Emanuel also provides a possible link to Spitalfields Market and its fruit trade.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seanr View Post
      As it turns out, the Black Bull was one of the pubs close to Buck's Row site where Polly Nichols' body was found.

      The mention of boxing, gang violence, boxing and 'John McCarthy' all in a proximity of Buck's Row was pretty intriguing. Personally, I'd been trying to find a pub with a clear gang connection in the proximity of Buck's Row for a while, so maybe just maybe I have found it.
      Can I ask why you're trying to link the Black Bull to Polly's murder in particular?
      There are at least three pubs in Whitechapel with that name and, as I understand it, the attack on Edgar took place at the one in Old Montague Street. Whilst this is within walking distance of Buck's Row (about half a mile) there were probably forty or fifty pubs that were closer to that murder site. It is however much nearer to the site where Emma Smith said she was attacked. For what that's worth

      Comment


      • #4
        I may be mistaken but I was of the belief this was the Black Bull at 199 Whitechapel Road. Which was possibly the closest drinking establishment to Buck's Row in 1888.

        Attempting to verify exactly which Black Bull it was.

        EDITED TO ADD: https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...=t19020407-321 It was indeed the Black Bull on Old Montague Street.
        Last edited by seanr; 12-09-2019, 09:09 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Surely The Roebuck would have been the closest pub?
          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, the Roebuck (at the East end of Buck's Row) was probably the closest, before it was demolished. But there were also a dozen others as close if not closer than the Black Bull: Red Lion, Star and Garter, Lord Napier, Grave Maurice, Lord Rodney's Head, Lord Nelson, Queen's Head on Whitechapel Road alone; Sir John Barleycorn in Thomas St, plus the Shakespeare's Arms, Weaver's Arms and the King's Head in Baker's Row (now Vallance Road). All gone now, but all, I think, around at the time of the murders.

            Comment


            • #7
              But other than that it was a great theory.

              Still, I don't think the Grave Maurice would have been closer... although surely it depends if one entered Buck's Row from Brady Street or from Vallance Road (Baker's Row). This Black Bull was at the corner of Vallance Road and Whitechapel Road. The building is still there.

              Comment


              • #8
                There were reports of a gang fight in Bucks Row earlier, if that helps.
                dustymiller
                aka drstrange

                Comment

                Working...
                X