Evidence left behind

[packers stem]

Daily News (and other papers) 10 Nov;

"The photographer who had been called in to photograph the room removed his camera from the premises at half past four, and shortly afterwards a detective officer carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body. It was taken to the house of Dr. Phillips, 2 Spital square."

My feeling is that it was most likely the stomach, for analysis of the contents.

Not according to Bond
"In the abdominal cavity was some partly digested food of fish and potatoes and a similar food was found in the remains of the stomach attached to the intestines "

[JeffHamm]

Daily News (and other papers) 10 Nov;

"The photographer who had been called in to photograph the room removed his camera from the premises at half past four, and shortly afterwards a detective officer carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body. It was taken to the house of Dr. Phillips, 2 Spital square."

My feeling is that it was most likely the stomach, for analysis of the contents.

Thanks for that. I don't recall seeing this before. I'll have a look through the references I have to see if there's any trace of comment from Dr. Phillips on the Kelly case that might suggest what it was. Have you already found something? Unfortunately, with the Kelly inquest so short, we don't have access to all of the evidence that would have been available, and if Dr. Phillips did do an analysis on a specific organ, that doesn't appear to have survived. I could see, for example, him being sent the uterus to examine if there was anything about it's removal that indicated a link with Chapman and/or Eddowes, since he had examined both of those. But again, there are so many possible intentions that can be proposed when one has so little actual information to draw upon.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

I have my own ideas about what they might have been looking for, but I was just baiting the discussion to see who brought up looking for the heart. I think they were looking for minute fragments of paper myself, something so small that it could have been missed the first sieving, yet something that could be identified even though a minute portion survived the heat. A small fragment of a stamp perhaps? I think Mary had a link to people who pulled the Post Office robbery the weekend of the so-called Double Event.

Anything that might have been burned might have left fragments, paper, clothes, and yes, even body parts. I would think, though, that if her heart had been burned in the fireplace, it would have left a fairly large charred remain, and so I tend to think that would have been found without a return and re-sift. But, of course, that all depends upon how hot the fire was, how long it burned, and so forth (the melted kettle does point in the direct it was actually quite hot, and long lasting, if it actually melted on that night and wasn't damaged on a previous occasion of being left to boil dry on the fire of course). I think the most we can safely say is they were searching for anything that might provide a clue, but we have nothing to indicate if they had anything specific in mind. Once we suggest specifics, we're speculating, which is fine as long as we recognize that's what we're doing.

If it were a search for evidence that the heart was burned, the rechecking of the fireplace would have to have occurred after the autopsy indicated the heart was missing. Knowing the relative times of those events could rule that idea out, or leave us in the current position of it being a possible motive for rechecking (wouldn't prove it was the reason, just leave it as something they might have been doing).

- Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Dr. Bond listed the positions of the removed body parts, both breasts, both kidneys, liver, spleen, uterus, the strips of flesh from her belly and thighs, and made notes on the position of the body and blood splashes on the wall and bedding. If the heart was there, it too would have been listed, which only stands to reason. His job was to detail the victim and the details of her injuries, etc. The evidence we have indicates the heart was not found in the room, and it was not found in her body at autopsy, therefore we have evidence of absence.

We also have a section from A System of Legal Medicine (p.63) in which the Kelly murder is discussed, albeit not by name, which says pretty clearly;
"In this case, to be sure, all the organs except the heart were found scattered about the room"

[Joshua Rogan]

I haven't seen a report of anything taken to Dr. Phillips in a pail? Where is that located as I would like to read it?

Daily News (and other papers) 10 Nov;

"The photographer who had been called in to photograph the room removed his camera from the premises at half past four, and shortly afterwards a detective officer carried from the house a pail, with which he left in a four wheel cab. The pail was covered with a newspaper, and was stated to contain portions of the woman's body. It was taken to the house of Dr. Phillips, 2 Spital square."

My feeling is that it was most likely the stomach, for analysis of the contents.

[Michael W Richards]

Some have speculated that they might have been looking to see if her heart had been burned in the fire, but we don't know for sure if that was their specific reason. It's possible they were just searching for evidence in general. It was possible, for example, the killer may have burned some of their own clothes that were blood stained, and if so, they might have found some remains of clothing that might provide a clue as to what sort of clothing he wore, etc. Without something that details their intentions, searching a crime scene is just a hunt for what is there, and then seeing what pieces of the puzzle they have to work with.

- Jeff

I have my own ideas about what they might have been looking for, but I was just baiting the discussion to see who brought up looking for the heart. I think they were looking for minute fragments of paper myself, something so small that it could have been missed the first sieving, yet something that could be identified even though a minute portion survived the heat. A small fragment of a stamp perhaps? I think Mary had a link to people who pulled the Post Office robbery the weekend of the so-called Double Event.

[JeffHamm]

Speaking of things left behind and Mary, why did Abberline feel the need to re-sieve the ashes Saturday morning after that was done Friday aft.? What did he think they "left behind"?.

Some have speculated that they might have been looking to see if her heart had been burned in the fire, but we don't know for sure if that was their specific reason. It's possible they were just searching for evidence in general. It was possible, for example, the killer may have burned some of their own clothes that were blood stained, and if so, they might have found some remains of clothing that might provide a clue as to what sort of clothing he wore, etc. Without something that details their intentions, searching a crime scene is just a hunt for what is there, and then seeing what pieces of the puzzle they have to work with.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

But there was not a full inventory made of the room, and its contents, because we do not know what was taken away later in the day in the pail that went to Dr Phillips. If whatever it was had been documented, then why the need to take it to Dr Phillips why not leave it with the rest of the body ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Dr. Bond listed the positions of the removed body parts, both breasts, both kidneys, liver, spleen, uterus, the strips of flesh from her belly and thighs, and made notes on the position of the body and blood splashes on the wall and bedding. If the heart was there, it too would have been listed, which only stands to reason. His job was to detail the victim and the details of her injuries, etc. The evidence we have indicates the heart was not found in the room, and it was not found in her body at autopsy, therefore we have evidence of absence.

And if MJK was killed by the same person as Chapman and Eddowes, we also have evidence that JtR had no specific designs on uterii or kidneys, as those were removed and left behind in her room. So he was just taking bits, not specific bits. And that leaves open the possibility that the other injuries at those crimes were not "designed to gain access" to uterii and/or kidneys per se, but happened to.

I haven't seen a report of anything taken to Dr. Phillips in a pail? Where is that located as I would like to read it?

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Speaking of things left behind and Mary, why did Abberline feel the need to re-sieve the ashes Saturday morning after that was done Friday aft.? What did he think they "left behind"?.

[Trevor Marriott]

Which indicates it wasn't part of the viscera in the room. And if it wasn't in her chest, and wasn't in the room, it's pretty unambiguous that it was taken by her killer.

- Jeff

But there was not a full inventory made of the room, and its contents, because we do not know what was taken away later in the day in the pail that went to Dr Phillips. If whatever it was had been documented, then why the need to take it to Dr Phillips why not leave it with the rest of the body ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Hmmmmmmmm

On your last point Trevor, why dont we see organ extractions or at least attempts in other murders,.....because we have multiple murderers. The evidence alone suggests Liz Stride was not killed by a Ripper. Martha wasn't. That leaves the 2 most obvious same killer kills, Polly and Annie, and 2 additional murders with circumstances that suggest acquaintance, or closer, of the killer before the murder. I think by matching the obvious and marking the others with asterixis you are left with circumstantial differences. When they reveal potential motivations that do not require a mad compulsive killer, partially because as I said, he knew the victim...and MO departures...such as seeking strangers out....then you have to set them aside from any "group". Where they are alike, they are also unalike in other ways. Marys murder for example is thought to be the crescendo, the opportunity he has been seeking to finally go fully nuts. Ok, so why is November any better than Oct or September to choose an indoor venue? What special circumstances finally led him into tiny courtyards with one way back out?

I submit that at least one multiple killer demonstrated clearly what his intentions were, they were madness manifested, and that his choices are not represented clearly in any other murder. Nor were his abilities.

[JeffHamm]

Because it was only noted as being absent from the pericardium at the post mortem, and not when the contents of the room was documented.

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Which indicates it wasn't part of the viscera in the room. And if it wasn't in her chest, and wasn't in the room, it's pretty unambiguous that it was taken by her killer.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Well I could say the same for your timeline, but you have not taken into account the additional circumstantial evidence, which I suggest goes to support the belief that the killer did not remove the organs,

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Of course, that's where opinions differ. I just think we should be careful not to state too firmly that there was only from 1:35-1:41 available, as the evidence isn't that specific. There's as much as from 1:33-1:42, and 9 minutes is 50% more time than 6. I'm not, and I hope it doesn't come across as me suggesting, that there definitely was 9 minutes, rather, we have somewhere between 6 and 9 minutes in terms of the window of opportunity. And that's really only if you go with the Church Passage Couple being Eddowes and JtR (or agree with my suggestion that even if they weren't, Eddowes and JtR were probably keeping out of the rain as well).

And if you don't think 9 minutes is enough time, then that's fine, as then even the longest time allowed by the evidence isn't long enough for you (I'll let others argue about clock sync and such). I'm know I'm discounting the other options I mentioned above here, and I'm probably being a bit hasty in doing so simply because I fully agree with you on PC Harvey's patrol being the latest probable time for JtR to be in Mitre Square, and agree he probably fled as Harvey approached, but of course we don't know that as a proven fact, so the caution in me keeps reminding me that there is an outside chance a few more minutes were available, but I find it hard to envision JtR remaining while PC Harvey comes down Church Passage. In fact, the only way I could see that happening would be if Harvey didn't patrol right to the end of Church Passage, and just went far enough up to ascertain that there was nothing there and he need not go all the way given that the gas lamp at the Mitre Square end of the passage would illuminate that end end for him. So if he just went a few feet up to check the first section, saw it was clear and of course couldn't see further into the Square then it's possible JtR never knew Harvey was there as well. JtR would then have fled when the door to the warehouse was opened by Morris during cleaning, which he said he did only a minute or two before Watkin's arrived. That would give JtR time to flee before being caught, but as I say, this is pure speculation and I can't say that hypothesis is any better or worse than another that simply hypothesizes some other set of events for which we also have no evidence. PC Harvey says he patrolled to the end of Church Passage, and doing that was his beat requirement, so unless there's something to suggest that information is wrong, we have to go with it. But even that alternative patrol were the case, that would only give an extra minute as it would allow JtR to flee as late as 1:43, which makes the ranges 7 and 10 rather than 6 and 9. That's not much of a gain really at the cost of trimming evidence we have when there is no other reason for it to be trimmed except to expand the window (so I'm presenting this as an example of a case of the evidence bowing to the theory, in my view). The only additional consequence would be it means JtR could then have fled back out Church Passage as now Harvey is gone, but that doesn't get as any further either as we don't know which way he left the Square.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

And we have Levy, of the same party, estimate they waited 3-4 minutes, so 1:33 at the earliest. Lawende's time of 1:30 was checked by his watch, the 5 minutes was his estimate, and Levy's estimate was 3 or 4 minutes. Hence, there is a range to consider in the evidence, starting at 1:33, ending at 1:35. Two minutes is a lot of time in this situation and we can't ignore it.

And there is no justifiable reason why one has to postulate the couple waited a minute for Lawende et co to pass them before heading into the passage. Once Lawende et Co pass the couple, the time available starts.

And the walk from where the couple were to the crime scene would take less than a minute at an average walking pace, and there is no reason to suggest they walked faster or slower than average.

And PC Harvey's estimated time of his patrol of Church Passage was 1:41 or 1:42, again, a range of times we have to work with. (NOTE: If you want to consider the end of all possible time windows as 1:44, when PC Watkins finds the body, then use the bracketed values below, and while I think those far less probable, opinions may vary).

All told, the widest window is from 1:33 to 1:42, so 9 minutes. (1:33 to 1:44; 11 minutes)

The narrowest time window is from 1:35 to 1:41, so 6 minutes. (1:35 to 1:44: 9 minutes)

The shortest estimate I've seen by a medical profession in terms of the time required was 2 minutes (posted on another thread), and the longest has been "5 minutes or more".

With even the 6 minute narrowest time window, there's a minute for the couple to get to the passage (which would take less than a minute), giving 5 minutes and change, covering all but the very longest, but unspecified, estimate of "or more". At the widest time window, of 9 minutes, the "or more" has to almost double the 5 minutes before there's a problem (and even that is overcome if one allows JtR to have not noticed PC Harvey, and so has 9 minutes at the very least, and as much as 11 minutes, but again, I think those are harder to defend, but not to be overlooked entirely).

When we take all of the evidence into account, and look at the ranges of times that the evidence requires us to consider, there is no compelling reason to conclude there wasn't enough time because those are the facts as we have them. Ranges of times are what we have to work with, and the ranges available do not rule anything out, but rather, tell us that JtR was able to do what he did very quickly, and I can't see someone without a lot of skill with using a knife quickly being able to do everything in that time period, even the widest window seems pretty quick. Someone who isn't used to working quickly with a knife would, in all probability, have cut themselves, and given the fecal matter in the Eddowes case, would run the risk of a pretty severe infection. (Which, come to think of it, might suggest searching hospital records for someone admitted to the hospital with severe blood poisoning from a cut, but that is a long shot of course).

And not to forget, of course, all of this is based on the unproven hypothesis that the couple spotted at the end of Church Passage even was Eddowes and JtR. While we have no other viable sightings to work with, there are other possible entrances to Mitre Square through which they may have entered after PC Watkins completed his patrol, but that just widens the widest possible time window, it certainly doesn't narrow anything. Personally, though, given that Lawende and Co didn't leave the club until 1:33-1:35 because they were waiting for the rain to stop, if Eddowes and JtR were sheltering somewhere other than the end of Church Passage, and we know it wasn't in Mitre Square (or Watkins would have seen them the first time round), I can't see them entering much sooner no matter how they get there - but I can't prove they didn't either because I wasn't there.


And if they left Church Passage at 1:33 (Levey's earliest time for passing), and ran, getting there at 1:33:15, we've got nearly 10 minutes 45 seconds. But I've no more proof of that hypothetical description than you do for your use of specific times. We can't just "What if" or "Maybe" the evidence away, and the the evidence gives us a range for the start of the window between 1:33 and 1:35, a range for the end of the window of 1:41-1:42 (or even 1:44 by Watkins), which is 6-9 minutes (or 9-11 minutes).

To say that it was impossible in the time available then you have to argue that it must have required more than 11 minutes because the evidence can sustain up to that amount of time; though I would argue more than 9 minutes is probably a strong case too since 9-11 minutes requires JtR continuing while PC Harvey patrols Church Passage and that seems highly improbable. But, I suppose if the Church Passage couple are not viewed as being Eddowes and JtR, then pm could allow for entrance as soon as Watkin's finished his first patrol (1:30), so our narrowest window becomes 1:30-1:41 (11 minutes) and the widest 1:30-1:42 (12 minutes) and the absolute most being the 14 minutes of Watkins' patrol.



From estimating positions based upon times PC Harvey checked at the PO clock, and his patrol length, his estimation of 1:41 and 1:42, combined with his descriptions of where he was when he heard the whistle (1:44), seems entirely reasonable. And I think, like you, his patrol is most likely what triggered JtR to flee, but that is just a hypothesis based upon a reasonable supposition - but truth is not always a reasonable supposition.



But those timings are not all that the evidence allows for, they only are chosen due to imposing unproven hypotheses upon the time windows the evidence gives us. But given those times for arrival, etc, leaving 4-5 minutes available for the murder, then that would indicate the shorter, rather than longer, estimates of time required for the murder and mutilations are to be preferred because the theory must bow to the evidence, not the evidence bow to the theory.


...
Mr. Crawford - You have spoken of the extraction of the left kidney. Would it require great skill and knowledge to remove it?
Witness (Dr. Brown): - It would require a great deal of knowledge as to its position to remove it. It is easily overlooked. It is covered by a membrane.

Mr. Crawford - Would not such a knowledge be likely to be possessed by one accustomed to cutting up animals?
Witenss - Yes.
...
And Dr. Brown goes on later to estimate "at least 5 minutes", putting him in the longer time range opinion (but that is for all the mutilations; not just the removal of the kidney, but all of them, including the cuts to the eyes, as just before giving his "at least 5 minutes" question he mentioned these specifically when saying he thought the killer had enough time, and when asked for how much time that was, he gives his "at least 5 minutes". So our narrowest time window of 6 minutes gives 1 minute for Eddowes and JtR to get to the crime scene, and still have the 5 minutes Dr. Brown thought was minimally required. Every second that widens that window, just makes it easier - and without doing anything fancy with the evidence, we may even have as much as 9 minutes to work with. So while we don't know, what we do know is that even the harshest narrowing of the time window, the evidence we have still leaves enough time.



Which is similar to Dr. Bond's summary of the C5 reports, including his examination of Kelly, that he believed no anatomical knowledge was evidenced in any of the crimes. While Dr. Phillips believed anatomical knowledge was shown with Eddowes (re: the kidney), Dr. Sequrera (sp?) disagreed on that point; and in Kelly's murder, both kidneys were removed and placed around the body.

Dr. Bond summarizes the placement of all of Kelly's organs at the crime scene, except the heart, which is later at autopsy noted to be absent (something he woudln't know at the crime scene), hence his statement the heart was absent from the body, coupled with the fact it was not detailed in the placement of the organs at the crime scene, leaves only the conclusion it was taken from the scene (and the uterus and both kidneys were left and accounted for - and given the uterii were, and everyone knew were taken from, Chapman and Eddowes, and that a kidney was taken from Eddowes, those would be the organs that inspector Reid would have noted were, in fact, not taken away from Kelly.

So, while I do see your line of reasoning, I'm not convinced it is one that that the evidence we have requires one to accept.

- Jeff

Excellent summing up Jeff. I think that it’s also worth mentioning that we can’t assume that all watches and clocks were spot-on or synchronised either which could have led to a minute or two either way. All told this potentially and plausibly could have given the killer quite considerably more that five minutes suggested.

The fact that the heart wasn’t recorded at the Kelly crime scene by Bond (who recorded the placement of the other organs) points pretty conclusively to the fact that it was taken away by the killer. Can we see anything to lead us to believe, in the case of a victim in a series of murders that was the focus of everyone’s attention, that someone got access and proceeded to remove body parts to sell without anyone finding out? Was this a regular occurrence that we have evidence of?

I genuinely don’t see any great mystery here.

[Trevor Marriott]

The post mortem conducted by Bond was done in Mary Kelly's room,and his list of her viscera were part of that.

It seems likely the heart and other organs were sent by carriage to Phillips.

The post mortem was carried out the next morning ! and I agree with you on that point

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