George Yard stables and other stables in Whitechapel area

[Tanfield]

Hi. New to the Forum so kicking off with a couple of questions and hoping for some feedback ;-

I have read that Louis Diemschutz ('witness' in the Stride case) stabled his Pony & cart in George Yard stables, Cable Street. Does anyone have an exact location/map for it on Cable Street and any other info about the size of the stable etc?

Were these sort of stables 'ten a penny' in the Whitechapel area and were they 'pay as you go' so to speak when wanting to leave a Pony & Cart for a few hours ?

Motive is connected to understanding 'Suspect' William Bury's possible movements in and around Whitechapel during the hours of darkness.

I have read some of William Beadle's work and I'm not sure if he is confusing 'George Yard Buildings' (Martha Tabram) with George Yard stables, Cable Street.

Thanks

[Ginger]

I have read that Louis Diemschutz ('witness' in the Stride case) stabled his Pony & cart in George Yard stables, Cable Street. Does anyone have an exact location/map for it on Cable Street and any other info about the size of the stable etc?

I don't know, but...

He had to get his cart and pony south across the train tracks to Cable Street, so that pretty much means going along either Backchurch Lane or Christian Street, both of which had an underpass to Cable Street. Maybe two hundred yards or so to the east along Cable Street is the church of St. George's in the East, then and now a landmark. It's surrounded by St. George's Gardens, originally the cemetery for St. George's Bloomsbury (aka St. George Hawksmoor) and St. George the Martyr churches. It looks like a plausible area to find a place named "George Yard".

Additionally, on a modern map (my 1880s map doesn't show the area, sadly), we have Hawksmoor Mews, School Mews, and Angel Mews, all leading off Cable Street toward St. George's Gardens. On preponderance of evidence, I'm guessing that he kept his pony here. It's an interesting question, and I'll see if I can't find out definitely.

[Joshua Rogan]

I believe George Yard was behind the George Tavern, 145 cable Street. The whole block was demolished in 1891 and replaced by a coal depot.

The brown squares with crosses on them are stables

[Ginger]

Here we go. Look on the London 1868 map - http://london1868.com/weller45b.htm . You may have to enlarge it a bit ([ctrl] [shift] [+] on most browsers). Find where the Cannon Street Road crosses Cable Street. Now follow Cable Street to the west. A close opens to the north off Cable, and then after that you'll see the passageway north to George Yard. It has another entrance on Lower Grove Street.

[Joshua Rogan]

Excuse the roughness, but here's another map. Red blob is George Yard stables, green is the club in Berner Street.

[Joshua Rogan]

Nice one, Ginger!

[Ginger]

Nice one, Ginger!

Yours is rather more detailed than mine, actually.

[Ginger]

Were these sort of stables 'ten a penny' in the Whitechapel area and were they 'pay as you go' so to speak when wanting to leave a Pony & Cart for a few hours ?

I've read this a couple times, and I'm not really sure I understand what you're asking. I think you're asking about putting a horse, harness, and cart up in a random stable for a few hours during the day like you would an automobile in a parking garage. My apologies if I've misinterpreted that.

You'd not really stable a horse (or pony) on an hourly basis. The animal needs a routine to thrive and stay healthy. He needs a home, and ideally one with grooms who know him and his particular requirements and personality, and whom he knows and is comfortable with. The exception, of course, is when travelling, and the horses have to be boarded overnight at an inn. If I correctly understand the nature of Deimschutz's business, he was home most, if not every night. He'd have had a regular stable, and probably one that he chose with some care, as maintaining the value of his pony and harness depended on it. Not only does the pony need a brushing and a rubdown, and his hooves looked after, and his dinner (and that to be good quality feed, and not dusty, and not 'off'), and a clean bed, but the harness has to be cleaned, and hung up to dry (ideally in a warm dry room), and occasionally oiled, or the leather will rot or crack.

Now Deimschutz and his pony might be out 12 or more hours a day, but much of that time, for a barrow pony like he was, would have been spent standing and dozing while his human sold jewelery from the cart. He'd have his lunch from a hay net or a nosebag, and be watered either at a trough (they were everywhere) or from a bucket. If Deimschutz needed to leave his pony and cart for some reason, horse holders were common around the markets (the husband of Mrs. Long, who possibly saw Annie Chapman talking to a man outside #29 Hanbury, was a horse holder), and boys could easily be hired almost anywhere else for a few pence to do the job. Barring some exceptional circumstance, the pony would be in harness from the time he left the stable until he returned at the end of the day. If the weather is foul, he'll have a coat or blanket to wear while he stands.

[Ginger]

One more observation - on Joshua's first map, arch #101 of the railroad (London & Blackheath, it seems) is marked as "vans stored". A man selling jewelry from his cart would want to look neat and presentable, I'm sure, and a covered place to keep his cart may have formed part of Deimschutz's decision to use the George Yard stables.

[Tanfield]

Thanks Joshua/Ginger - really excellent stuff.

Ginger, the reason for my original question was that, as part of William Bury's candidacy for the Ripper murders, there is a suggestion that he (or anybody else) would be able to move about the streets at night with a Horse & Cart and, furthermore, alight from it for a period of time (hours?) thus leaving it in a safe and inconspicuous place. Whether, in Bury's case, this was simply to frequent the local ale houses or some other more sinister motive is unknown.

Reports do have Bury being out during the hours of darkness on a regular basis and i'm trying to establish if he would it be practical for him to travel from his residence (Spanby Road) into Whitechapel and leave his Horse & Cart for a few hours (whilst he drank and who knows what ...)

Without wishing to deviate too far from the subject and perhaps this will need to spill over onto a 'Bury' thread i'm trying see if others know of the practicalities of leaving a Horse & cart in 1888 Whitechapel during the night for a couple of hours and any particular locations which would be popular/known for individuals to do so.

Diemschultz's chosen location seemed to be a good starting point....

[Ginger]

Thanks Joshua/Ginger - really excellent stuff.

Ginger, the reason for my original question was that, as part of William Bury's candidacy for the Ripper murders, there is a suggestion that he (or anybody else) would be able to move about the streets at night with a Horse & Cart and, furthermore, alight from it for a period of time (hours?) thus leaving it in a safe and inconspicuous place. Whether, in Bury's case, this was simply to frequent the local ale houses or some other more sinister motive is unknown.

Reports do have Bury being out during the hours of darkness on a regular basis and i'm trying to establish if he would it be practical for him to travel from his residence (Spanby Road) into Whitechapel and leave his Horse & Cart for a few hours (whilst he drank and who knows what ...)

Without wishing to deviate too far from the subject and perhaps this will need to spill over onto a 'Bury' thread i'm trying see if others know of the practicalities of leaving a Horse & cart in 1888 Whitechapel during the night for a couple of hours and any particular locations which would be popular/known for individuals to do so.

Diemschultz's chosen location seemed to be a good starting point....

Well... Leaving your horse and cart unattended isn't really a prudent thing to do, but then again, neither is murdering people on public streets. There's no doubt that it was done. Young Alf, in "The Hooligan Nights", gives advice on how best to steal an unattended cart and horse in broad daylight ("hop on, drive away, act like it was your own"). It would perhaps prove a bit awkward explaining to the police how your horse and cart were stolen so close to a murder scene in the dead of night.

Outside of public houses would undoubtedly be a place where men commonly left their carts, but is also where a thief might look for easy targets. A cart left outside a railroad station or a goods depot might be a bit safer from theft.

Package delivery is one of those things that was an everyday business in the LVP, but tends to be overlooked today, when most people can haul packages home from the store in their automobile. The Post Office had extremely strict limits on the sizes (all three dimensions together cannot exceed six feet) and weight (under eleven pounds) of packages they would handle, and nonconforming stuff went by private delivery service. A package company would send 'round a man with a cart to collect a customer's package, which then went to a depot, where the packages were sorted by destination, put in lots on wagons, and sent off to the train station or a delivery route or another nearby depot as appropriate. I see no reason to think that customers would not be welcome to bring their own packages on their own carts to the depot to be shipped as well. Manufacturers, additionally, often had their own carts and wagons which would be used to haul shipments to and from the railway station. During the daytime and into the early evening, at least, one would expect a fair crowd of carts being loaded and unloaded at such places, and probably a constable outside the train station directing traffic, and employees of the freight company keeping an eye outside their depot. A left cart might be safe from theft, but at the cost of probably attracting attention to the driver if left for some time.

Very late at night there'd be a lot less traffic, and far fewer people about. I'd expect carts and horses to still be common around the railway station. A cart and horse tied up near a cabstand would probably be reasonably safe, but again at the cost of attracting attention. The emergency entrance of a hospital would probably have an attendant who might be asked (and tipped, I should imagine) to look after a horse and cart, but again, at the cost of drawing attention to oneself. I suppose also one might ask to leave a cart and horse in the yard of a boarding or livery stable, but again, I'm sure a tip would be expected, and one draws attention to oneself.

One might look for security in leaving the horse and cart in an out of the way street, but iron wheel rims and iron shoes are loud, especially late at night. Even if you're not driving a sinister black coach and four, it seems a good way of drawing attention to oneself.

I suppose there are probably places I've not thought of as well. The whole idea of leaving the cart and horse while going off to murder someone seems terribly risky to me, but the Ripper obviously was more comfortable with risk than am I.

[chubbs]

George Yard is today's current JtR rabbithole. And it's got a William Henry Bury focus. It will be a bit garbled, because I'm still thinking it through.

George Yard (now renamed Gunthorpe St), runs N-S between the Thrawl St area and Whitechapel High St. It was one of the notoriously bad sections of Whitechapel - full of 'thieves, prostitutes and bullies'. As we know, Martha Tabram's body, stabbed 39 times, was found in the stairwell of George Yard Buildings, in George Yard.

There were stables on the East side of George Yard. Having read through this thread, I'm wondering if there may be a bit of confusion between the stables in George Yard off Cable Street (south of Whitechapel, down Leman St) and the stables in George Yard (now Gunthorpe St).

William Henry Bury had a horse & cart (for his 'employment' as a sawdust hawker). Initially it was a horse and cart that was owned by his employer, James Martin, up the road in Quickett St., Bow. Bury was quite used to sleeping in the stables there, in the straw, with the horse.
After a few months Bury was dumped by Martin and he convinced Ellen (the wife he murdered a few months later) to buy him a horse & cart so he could go self-employed. I think one horse died and then she got him a second one?
Bury, who was supposed to be hawking sawdust around Whitechapel, drank non-stop instead. This means he'd have needed somewhere to stable his horse in Whitechapel, while he was boozing. He also was known to stay out all night and he got his STi from a prostitute. If he'd drunk any money he had, he wouldn't have been allowed in a Common Lodging House, but that doesn't matter - he's used to sleeping in the stables, with his horse.

In 1885 there was the city sawmill in Angel Alley, fronting onto Wentworth St (I'm not 100% certain that it was still working in 1888 - this is 'work in progress'). I presume the mill is shown on the map below as 'mill'. Where there's a sawmill, there's sawdust!
So, putting these elements together:
Bad area
Prostitutes
Ale houses
Stables
Sawmill
...leads me to think there might be some scope for further investigation here.

Oh, and If you walk from Mitre Square to Goulston St, you're heading DIRECTLY to George Yard - in fact you're over half way there. It takes about 10 minutes to walk. I'm intrigued.

Has anyone else been down this rabbithole?

[chubbs]

Further to my post above, here's the plan of the Council Works area, George Yard Works Depot, in 1914. Even in 1914 it still has 2 'cart sheds', or one large one (B & C).

[Lewis C]

George Yard is today's current JtR rabbithole. And it's got a William Henry Bury focus. It will be a bit garbled, because I'm still thinking it through.

George Yard (now renamed Gunthorpe St), runs N-S between the Thrawl St area and Whitechapel High St. It was one of the notoriously bad sections of Whitechapel - full of 'thieves, prostitutes and bullies'. As we know, Martha Tabram's body, stabbed 39 times, was found in the stairwell of George Yard Buildings, in George Yard.

There were stables on the East side of George Yard. Having read through this thread, I'm wondering if there may be a bit of confusion between the stables in George Yard off Cable Street (south of Whitechapel, down Leman St) and the stables in George Yard (now Gunthorpe St).

William Henry Bury had a horse & cart (for his 'employment' as a sawdust hawker). Initially it was a horse and cart that was owned by his employer, James Martin, up the road in Quickett St., Bow. Bury was quite used to sleeping in the stables there, in the straw, with the horse.
After a few months Bury was dumped by Martin and he convinced Ellen (the wife he murdered a few months later) to buy him a horse & cart so he could go self-employed. I think one horse died and then she got him a second one?
Bury, who was supposed to be hawking sawdust around Whitechapel, drank non-stop instead. This means he'd have needed somewhere to stable his horse in Whitechapel, while he was boozing. He also was known to stay out all night and he got his STi from a prostitute. If he'd drunk any money he had, he wouldn't have been allowed in a Common Lodging House, but that doesn't matter - he's used to sleeping in the stables, with his horse.

In 1885 there was the city sawmill in Angel Alley, fronting onto Wentworth St (I'm not 100% certain that it was still working in 1888 - this is 'work in progress'). I presume the mill is shown on the map below as 'mill'. Where there's a sawmill, there's sawdust!
So, putting these elements together:
Bad area
Prostitutes
Ale houses
Stables
Sawmill
...leads me to think there might be some scope for further investigation here.

Oh, and If you walk from Mitre Square to Goulston St, you're heading DIRECTLY to George Yard - in fact you're over half way there. It takes about 10 minutes to walk. I'm intrigued.

Has anyone else been down this rabbithole?

I haven't been down that rabbithole. Has it been proven that Bury had access to that stable and could stay there overnight when he wanted to? If so, I think it's a very significant point.

[chubbs]

I haven't been down that rabbithole. Has it been proven that Bury had access to that stable and could stay there overnight when he wanted to? If so, I think it's a very significant point.

No - it's currently nothing more than a flight of fantasy on my part, but that's how these things begin, isn't it?
There isn't currently a jot of evidence that Bury was ever there, but the notion that he might have been there gives me the impetus to go deeper into the hole. If only I could get some more documentation about that yard on the East side of Georges Yard.
I know there was an Ale Storage facility there - Bury would have liked that!