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Socialism in the East End

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  • #31
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
    The staff at a pub (unnamed) next door to the Cambridge Music Hall were questioned as to the whereabouts of Alice McKenzie earlier in the evening. The City of Norwich seems to me to fit the bill. See the testimony of George Dixon (blind boy) during the McKenzie inquest.
    Hi Jerry,
    I'm not sure the City of Norwich was anywhere near the music hall. More likely George was taken to the Commercial Tavern (which Dave Hill thought might once have been called the City of Norwich, but not so, according to the website London Pubology). Or The Ship in nearby Wheler St. Or even closer was the White Hart, in Vine Court, which a few years later became part of Little Pearl St.

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    • #32
      https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/S...cialArms.shtml
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DJA View Post
        Jacob Isenschmid,an early suspect in Annie Chapman's murder "was known to a publican named Gehringer of Wentworth Street" according to Abberline.
        Paul Begg and our own John Bennett.
        Mmm, although the name is spelled Gerlinger in the report. Mrs Gerling(h)er was questioned by Sgt Thick, but she denied any knowledge of Isenschmidt, as did the other Germans he questioned in the area. Could she be the female relative?

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        • #34
          Reckon. Emma.

          Isenschmid was Swiss.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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          • #35
            Incidentally, it was Isenschmidt's wife who told the police "He used to frequent a Public House kept by a 'German' named Gerlinger in Wentworth Street Whitechapel"

            When Thick went to check this, he reported;
            "I called on Mrs Gerlingher, the person referred to in wife's statement, who stated that she did not know the man I referred to and that no person but the regular customers had visited her house a 'Public House'. I have made careful enquiries amongst Germans whom I know in this neighbourhood but failed to find any trace of 'Isenschmidt' having been seen in this neighbourhood".

            Abberline reported that Isenschmidt "from his description he is believed to be identical with the man seen in the Prince Albert P.H. Brushfield Street, Spitalfields with blood on his hands at 7am on the morning of the murder of Annie Chapman".

            Though I think the doctors at the asylum refused to let anyone confront Isenschmidt to identify him as the same man.
            ​​​​

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            • #36
              Simply no evidence against him.
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                Mmm, although the name is spelled Gerlinger in the report. Mrs Gerling(h)er was questioned by Sgt Thick, but she denied any knowledge of Isenschmidt, as did the other Germans he questioned in the area. Could she be the female relative?
                I think this is probably it. I stumbled on a reference over on jtrforum that Isenschmid drank at the 'The City of Norwich': https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=9778&page=2
                I can't find a source for the claim but it's possible someone put it together from the publican's name.

                The name fits and the Wentworth Street location. It's cool that one of these word-of-mouth stories passed through the generations checks out.

                I doubt that the proximity of ‘The City Of Norwich’ and the attacks on Emma Smith and Martha Tabram could have been missed by the police at the time. It’s possibly why Isenschmid seemed such a promising suspect.
                Last edited by seanr; 02-09-2019, 09:25 PM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                  Hi Jerry,
                  I'm not sure the City of Norwich was anywhere near the music hall. More likely George was taken to the Commercial Tavern (which Dave Hill thought might once have been called the City of Norwich, but not so, according to the website London Pubology). Or The Ship in nearby Wheler St. Or even closer was the White Hart, in Vine Court, which a few years later became part of Little Pearl St.
                  Thanks Joshua,

                  I was thinking City of Norwich was on Great Pearl Street or that area for some reason.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                    I was thinking City of Norwich was on Great Pearl Street or that area for some reason.
                    I can see why someone would get that impression. Duckworth describes Great Pearl Street as 'belonging' to Gehringer, which implies to me this was the area he controlled. It's perhaps reasonable to assume the pub he owned would be in the same area.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by seanr View Post

                      Here's the clipping about the letter that was found by Chris Scott and posted at jtrforums
                      Thanks for posting that, couldn't remember where I'd read it.

                      It was the Duke of Wellington where McCarthy made his speech denouncing the Daily Mail's 'Worst Street in London' article a few years later. It seems safe to assume 'The Duke of Wellington' was a pub McCarthy consider friendly to him.
                      Funny you should mention that speech...how do you think McCarthy's description of the street tallies with the impression given by the Booth notes? For instance, McCarthy says he owned two of the five lodging houses in the street (there were reportedly 13 in 1888, but I believe this was because it counted the addresses whereas many were aggregated into one large establishment, eg Commercial Chambers address covered 15-20 Dorset St) but by far the largest two were owned by Crossingham (although I believe these were single sex houses, not mixed). He also says there were three shops owned by McCarthys, but from "three separate and distinct families". Which, if true, may have given the impression that one man controlled the whole street.
                      ​​​​​
                      14 Dorset Street was, I think, a common lodging house which the witness at the Mary Kellly inquest, Caroline Maxwell gives as her address.
                      Yes. Not one owned by McCarthy, though, I think, at least not at thr time of the Ripper scare. From memory, Debs found he purchased his properties in the 1890's.

                      Incidentally, did you say you found McCarthy owned property in streets other than Dorset St?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Funny you should mention that speech...how do you think McCarthy's description of the street tallies with the impression given by the Booth notes? For instance, McCarthy says he owned two of the five lodging houses in the street (there were reportedly 13 in 1888, but I believe this was because it counted the addresses whereas many were aggregated into one large establishment, eg Commercial Chambers address covered 15-20 Dorset St) but by far the largest two were owned by Crossingham (although I believe these were single sex houses, not mixed). He also says there were three shops owned by McCarthys, but from "three separate and distinct families". Which, if true, may have given the impression that one man controlled the whole street.
                        ​​​​​
                        I think I might need to re-read McCarthy's speech and compare to the comments in the Booth notes to really answer the question properly, but from memory I found McCarthy's speech 'defending' Dorset Street very sinister. He sets out that he knows exactly where the author of the article lives, that it was poorly lit and he had also seen a woman in the area. I saw an implied threat.
                        On Duckworth's notes; Duckworth was Booth's secretary. It's possible Booth was on the walk and Duckworth was responsible for taking notes. Therefore, it is hard to be clear on whether the opinions on McCarthy are Booth's, Duckworth's or Sergeant French's. If it was Sergeant French saying Dorset Street 'belongs' to McCarthy, that would be very significant.
                        I don't take Duckworth's note on Great Pearl St and Dorset St belonging to Gerlingher and McCarthy respectively, to be an expression of property ownership alone. In short, I believe the claim to be 'there's a lot of criminal activity on Dorset Street and McCarthy is The Boss'.
                        McCarthy being The Boss of Dorset Street, could be the reason why he is the one to speak in its 'defence' after the Daily Mail article. It's literally an attack on his manor.

                        Regarding Crossingham's houses being single sex, I'm not so sure. 35 Dorset Street was a Crossingham property, where the Mary Ann Austin murder occurred in 1901. The coroner Wynne E Baxter clarified with William Crossingham that he is aware of the lodging house rules that males and female should not share a room unless they are married, at the inquest. It was these very comments of Baxter's, I was reminded of when i read Duckworth's comments about the 'doubles' lodging houses being 'really brothels'.

                        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Yes. Not one owned by McCarthy, though, I think, at least not at thr time of the Ripper scare. From memory, Debs found he purchased his properties in the 1890's.
                        I found a reference on a previous casebook thread stating number 14 was owned by Lewis White and leased to William Crossingham - https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4926/5408.html. From memory, Fiona Rule speculates the Crossingham and the McCarthy families were somewhat allied.

                        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Incidentally, did you say you found McCarthy owned property in streets other than Dorset St?
                        From Duckworth's notes from the walk in Spitalfield in 1898, I saw comments that McCarthy owned properties on Dorset Street and Little Paternoster Row. I checked for other streets where McCarthy owned houses, I think it was from Debs' research that I found the reference to Thrawl Street. Checking Duckworth's notes, he comments on a McCarthy property there, too.
                        I don't know which of these he owned in 1888.
                        If we know of anywhere else he owned properties, it could be illuminating to check the Booth records on those houses, too. There's a definite pattern.

                        Checking the page on Thrawl Street again, I see Duckworth comments on Lolesworth Street. Of the east side, he notes 'brothels - thieves, prostitutes, ponces' - https://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b3...240%2C737.5275
                        I'd guess that number 19, where Emily Horsnell, Margaret Hames, Emma Smith, Martha Tabram and Mary Kelly had all lived at one time or another was on the east side?

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                        • #42
                          In Dorset Street during 1888 .....

                          McCarthy leased 11 and 12,26 and 27,30 which probably had "the" gaslight out front

                          McCarthy owned 37,38 and 39 which might have supplied Mary Kelly's coal.

                          Crossingham leased 14,15,16-19,20/20A and 35.

                          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                          • #43
                            I realised that earlier in the thread I've stated that McCarthy owned property in Great Pearl Street. I missed this later, as I started to assume the street was controlled by Frederick Gehringer.

                            I received the impression McCarthy had property in Great Pearl Street from discussions on Sarah Lewis, the witness at the Mary Kelly inquest. There's discussions suggesting that 24 Great Pearl Street was owned by McCarthy. Any source on McCarthy owning 24 Great Pearl Street?

                            As it may be possible, Sarah Lewis had been working at a Gehringer establishment but had recently switched allegiances to McCarthy.

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                            • #44
                              1891 census shows Fred Gehringer Jnr and family listed at 31 Pearl Street,along with wife,children and servants.

                              He is a house agent.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by DJA View Post
                                1891 census shows Fred Gehringer Jnr and family listed at 31 Pearl Street,along with wife,children and servants.

                                He is a house agent.
                                Yeah, I've seen that entry here and it confuses me as in the short email exchange I had with Dave Hill, he stated that Frederick Gehringer died childless and shared his estate amongst his nieces and nephews, when he passed away in 1909. So, I don't know what happened to Frederick W A Gehringer and Martha E M Gehringer.

                                It's plausible that Matilda Gehringer was the 'Mrs Gerling(h)er' interviewed by Sergeant Thick.


                                Last edited by seanr; 02-11-2019, 12:57 AM.

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