Why Hanbury St. No. 29?

[The Grave Maurice]

If you prefer Druit, Maybrick or Tumblety you have more of a problem as they would have had other options. Or Le Grand for that matter.

Fortunately, Lech, hardly anyone believes in the viability of any of those suspects except...uh oh, I think I'll shut up now.

[Wickerman]

... We don’t know how many times (if ever) the killer felt vulnerable enough to not go through with a murder/mutilation. (too many witnesses about, police presence, location too exposed).

Absolutely, and the end result would only be another woman complaining about some weirdo trying to get her down some ally.
And there are several complaints of weirdo's harasing women.

People who act weird are assumed to be harmless, who would suspect a weirdo?

Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

People who act weird are assumed to be harmless, who would suspect a weirdo?

I find that a weird statement in itself. Although today we know that the most dangerous killers are people that appear totally normal on the outside, and
weirdos are mainly harmless, it is human nature to be frightened of weirdos
as they are unpredictable.

Given the choice of going to a secluded spot with a normal seeming person or
a weirdo, I'd pick the 'normal' person everytime -and I've read enough accounts of murder.

[Lechmere]

Frau Retro
Would you go to a secluded spot with a weirdo who had the presence of mind to keep his gob shut? (I’m thinking Isenschmid by the way).

If he casually picked up a prostitute, went to an ally, didn’t feel comfortable and ‘made his excuses and left’ (as the News of the World used to say) then I doubt he would have been classified as a weirdo. That probably happens all the time – people chicken out, realise they haven’t got enough money, get a better look at their intended sexual partner or whatever.

[lynn cates]

JI

Hello Lechmere. Although JI had his lucid moments, he often came off as confused or indecisive. His description matched Leather Apron and he was supposed to have had crazy looking eyes and a sinister grin. (And this is easily established by consulting his photographs.)

Now most of the time Leather Apron was engaged in shaking prostitutes down. Of course, perhaps not every time. Germane to the discussion is this: would someone go off with him? In general, I think not; however, Polly was somewhat incapacitated when her time came and Annie seems to have been coming up empty for some time when she met her assailant and may have been a bit incautious.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Why 29 ?
Easy.
The ripper was 29 in 1888.

[Lechmere]

Was he also two yards tall?
And he might have (mitre) got court.

[Rubyretro]

Frau Retro
Would you go to a secluded spot with a weirdo who had the presence of mind to keep his gob shut? (I’m thinking Isenschmid by the way).

If he casually picked up a prostitute, went to an ally, didn’t feel comfortable and ‘made his excuses and left’ (as the News of the World used to say) then I doubt he would have been classified as a weirdo. That probably happens all the time – people chicken out, realise they haven’t got enough money, get a better look at their intended sexual partner or whatever.

Oh God, Lechmere, it's you again.

So if a weirdo had the "presence of mind to keep his gob shut" presumably because he realised that he was weird, then could he be classified as a "weirdo" ?

Lynn -I have lucid moments, can be confused or indecisive, and probably have crazy looking eyes and a sinister grin. I'm not sure that
you'd want to go up an alley with me.

This is Catch 22. You can't actually be weird -in the sense of JI (or Kosminski) and be aware of it and so turn it on and off at will.

Of course JTR-weird is a different matter altogether...

[lynn cates]

moments

Hello Ruby.

"Lynn -I have lucid moments, can be confused or indecisive, and probably have crazy looking eyes and a sinister grin. I'm not sure that
you'd want to go up an alley with me."

Well, depends on the conversation. Is it about the WCM? (heh-heh)

Seriously, according to the Colney Hatch charts, JI could be lucid and even endearing on some days; other days . . . .

I think Jeff Leahy has a similar scenario for Aaron K.

I'd better leave the details for those who are clinically qualified to speak.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

I'm sure that I could endeavour to be endearing as well, Lynn -but you'd have to lead the conversation on the WCM...I get my acronymes in a twist
quite frequently.

[tnb]

It is rather out of character for me to say this (and I do so with no disrespect meant), but is this whole thread largely an irrelevant point?

Certainly, if you read Amelia Richardson's inquest evidence in the same way that I do - I find it very hard to believe that she could guarantee that the yard was never used for any 'immoral purpose(s)' given what she does admit to, which is fairly regular traffic to and fro; unless Mrs Richardson was sitting in an overlooking room on sentry duty all night how could she tell one from the other? In fact, I tend to think that her wording is rather clever - admitting the passage of people while claiming never to know of those same people ever being en route to or from illicit activities ('I should not allow (it)...if I knew it'). Does this not leave rather a large grey area and raise the age-old question of how much people 'know' represents as a portion of the whole truth, and how much said person wanted to know...

Personally, I think this reading of Amelia Richardson's evidence strongly suggests that the backyard of number 29, Hanbury Street was if not necessarily a well-used spot for prostitutes in the area at least an occasionally used one. While I reckon TGM might have a pretty good suggestion for the reasons behind that, in that the relatively elderly, widowed female Mrs Richardson may have been seen as something of a 'soft touch' compared to other landlords - remember her son checking on the store because of recent robberies, and perhaps even consider this as a reason for the presence of 14-year old Thomas - and especially if we accept that she may have been willing to turn a blind eye (to not know of) to such activities; but whether this is the reason or not, the most important thing is that for one reason or another it was a known spot for such activity.

In this scenario at least, that fact precedes the Chapman murder, and so there was no deliberate choice necessary on the part of the killer - whatever the reason for it, Chapman and her killer may not even have known - but one, the other or both of victim and murdererer chose that spot simply because others had done so before. The reasons behind that therefore have no bearing on the actions of psychology of the killer, even if it was his choice. Reading too much into this is dangerous without us possessing the very specific knowledge boasted by these women and their clients about the best spots for a transaction, and the logic behind a lot of those habits may well have been lost in the mists of time by the September of 1888, when either Annie, as a prostitute herself, or her killer, if we go with a hypothetical serial user of prostitutes (I would agree that I don't see him choosing number 29 by chance, so IF we are to believe that the killer chose the location then I would say that points in this direction) chose it wittingly or unwittingly to be the site of the former's death.

On that point though and for what it is worth, I would agree with Edward that the prospect of the killer being 'successful' every single time is not necessarily a given, and have actually undertaken research in that direction myself. However I do think it stands to reason that the killer, being as he was never caught, took some reasonable precautions. To that end, why would he even risk raising suspicion by suggesting a location of his choosing, when by definition a prostitute who you have engaged for sex is going to leave you to a secluded spot, and would feel more in control of the situation (and thus less likely to flee) in a spot of their choice? All the better to make the encounter appear as normal as possible, to avoid raising the suspicions not only of passers-by but also your victim themselves. To my mind, that encounter would have seemed no different to any other, right up until the moment when the hand was raised to the mouth/throat.

Therefore, in my opinion, the backyard of number 29, Hanbury Street was most likely chosen by Chapman herself, and for no other reason than habit and reputation.

[Lechmere]

I rather think that JI’s lucid moments when he was harmless and puppy-like did not coincide with any potentially violent mouth frothing episodes.
I also rather think that he wouldn’t be able to conciously turn on or off his different behaviours.
Hence if he makes a very implausible C1 and C2 murder suspect as, in mouth frothing mode, how would he have cajoled a prostitute into a murder scene on the basis that he was a harmless client.
Is it plausible that Annie Chapman would have willingly gone to the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street with such a man?

[K-453]

the backyard of number 29, Hanbury Street was most likely chosen by Chapman herself, and for no other reason than habit and reputation.

Yes, that is what I think ...

... but my point here is: Why this hiding place, and not another, equally convenient hiding place?

It is possible Annie picked Jack up in Spitalfields Market or Commercial Street. But then they passed very likely other suitable spots on their way to 29. I wonder why.
I think, it is more likely they encountered each other close to that house, and I am wondering what each of them was doing in Hanbury Street at four o'clock in the morning.
Okay, soliciting trade / looking for someone to kill. But why there?

Looks like I am splitting some hairs here, but I think, the location gives a clue to the killer. Although it was likely chosen by Annie.
It looks so random - some back yard in the middle of a street, with 17 people in the house. Yet the killer got away again.

[lynn cates]

Horse slaughterers

Hello K. Is it possible that both Polly and Annie ran into their assailant whilst he was standing by the horse slaughter yard looking on?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

I agree with you K