Douible Event Triangulation

[Jon Guy]

Both had the "odd gait" which supposedly characterised "Leather Apron." But so did Isenschmid.

That`s interesting, Lynn. I knew he had a bad ankle (and a black eye and bruises) sustained during his struggle with the four coppers at his lodging but where did you get Isenschmid`s "odd gait" from?

[lynn cates]

open gait

Hello Jon. Thanks. I am assuming the Abberline identification of JI with the "Fiddymont man." And his gait was peculiar indeed.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Indeed, "Fiddy`s Man" did have a peculiar gait but Isenschmid was never identified as him so we can`t be sure it was him (we can`t even place him in Whitechapel, all his meandering`s been a few miles away in Holloway) and the records don`t show any problems with his legs and no mention of a gait can be attributed to JI, other than the initial injury I previously mentioned.
I can`t help also thinking that Fiddy`s Man was a lot thinner than Isenschmid (even though I know JI had lost some weight of late), and Fiddy`s Man had a long neck which I cannot see on JI.
Didn`t a family member come forward to give him an alibi for the Chapman murder? It was around the time, the 19th Sept I think, that the police seemed to lose interest?

[lynn cates]

JI

Hello Jon

"Indeed, "Fiddy`s Man" did have a peculiar gait but Isenschmid was never identified as him so we can`t be sure it was him"

Correct. We cannot be certain. Abberline, however, called them identical. Helson thought it "probable" that they were the same.

"(we can`t even place him in Whitechapel, all his meandering`s been a few miles away in Holloway)"

Not all in Holloway The police caught him in a house in Clerkenwell.

"and the records don`t show any problems with his legs"

I don't think it was a problem, whoever it was--just a fast and very peculiar gait (Fiddymont's man and "Leather Apron").

"I can`t help also thinking that Fiddy`s Man was a lot thinner than Isenschmid (even though I know JI had lost some weight of late)"

Thinner than JI? New one on me.

"and Fiddy`s Man had a long neck which I cannot see on JI."

Look at his 1908 photo--the one in profile.

"Didn`t a family member come forward to give him an alibi for the Chapman murder? It was around the time, the 19th Sept I think, that the police seemed to lose interest?"

The story to which you refer is in "The Star" September 21. It says that JI's brother vouched for him.

As Sugden points out, he had no brother in the country so the story is "probably untrue."

But suppose someone else vouched for him? That would be difficult given that he left Mitford rd at 1.00 AM and returned at 9.00 PM every day.

What is truly remarkable (as Sugden points out) is that the story is entirely uncorroborated, especially in the Met files. As you recall, Isenschmid is the best documented suspect of all.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Different Directions

I know this concerns the Double-event, but a little known sighting immediately following the Chapman murder suggests a suspect headed east on Hanbury St. towards Brick Lane.

"John Thimbleby, coppersmith in Hanbury's brewery, went to the Commercial-street-station at one o'clock yesterday to say that at six o'clock that morning a man attracted his particular attention before he heard of the murder. He was hurrying from Hanbury-street, below where the murder took place, into Brick-lane. He was walking, almost running, and had a peculiar gait, his knees not bending when he walked. (This is a peculiarity of "Leather Apron's" gait). He was dressed in a dark stiff hat and cutaway coat, reaching to his knees. His face was clean shaven, and he seemed about 30 years old. Thimbleby says he can identify him."

A 30+/- year old man dressed in a morning/cutaway coat is known from the Stride murder.
Davis is said to have discovered the body of Chapman about 6:00 am, the men to whom he raised the alarm did not run eastward, but westward, so this doesn't appear to be a recent witness to the finding of the body.
It may have been the killer.

If it was, then here again we have this perpetrator fleeing eastward again like he did from Mitre Sq.

Just something to throw into the mix..

Regards, Jon S.

West from Bucks Row (possibly), North-East from Mitre Square (almost certainly), North-West from Berner Street (well, maybe), now East (perhaps) along Hanbury Street. If I can shake off this "man-flu" I'll try and plot this on a map & see what it looks like. (It won't prove anything, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing in my view)

Thanks, all.

[Bridewell]

Following On

West from Bucks Row (possibly), North-East from Mitre Square (almost certainly), North-West from Berner Street (well, maybe), now East (perhaps) along Hanbury Street. If I can shake off this "man-flu" I'll try and plot this on a map & see what it looks like. (It won't prove anything, but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing in my view)

Thanks, all.

Further to the above. Man-flu gone, but I only have one copy of the 1894 map which already has quite a lot of annotation, so I won't, at this stage, deface it further. If I can be permitted to run with my belief that the killer instinctively made his initial move towards a safe haven, my thoughts are as follows (based, for the sake of argument, on the not inconsiderable assumption that all the possible sightings already referred to are in fact genuine.). I know they may not be, but just for the sake of argument...

Killer goes west along Bucks Row - therefore safe haven no further east than Bakers Row.
Killer goes east along Hanbury Street - therefore safe haven no further west than No.29.
Killer goes north-west along Berner St onto Church Lane - therefore safe haven no further south than Whitechapel Road and no further east than Union Street (otherwise why go past Commercial St / Union St junction?)
Killer goes north-east from Mitre Square at least as far as GSG - therefore safe haven no further south or west than that point.

All speculative, I know, but the only murder scene which would not be eliminated by such a process would be that of Martha Tabram in George Yard Buildings which just gets in above the GSG southern limit. The FBI view is that serial killers always commit their first killing in their primary comfort zone, near to their home. The area around Osborn Street looks interesting, especially as Osborn St / Whitechapel High St is where Polly Nichols was last seen. Was she taken east to Bucks Row to get her away from where JtR thought he might be recognised?

All hypothesis, I know, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that the killer lived somewhere in the area bordered by Wentworth St, Osborn St, Whitechapel High St & Commercial St. Does anyone know of a credible (i.e. not an Impressionist painter) suspect who may have lived there at the material time? Severin Klosowski perhaps. Any more?

Regards, Bridewell

[The Grave Maurice]

Fascinating speculations here, Bridewell. Unless I missed something, though, I don't see why you think it more likely that the killer went east on Hanbury Street.

[Beowulf]

Further to the above. Man-flu gone, but I only have one copy of the 1894 map which already has quite a lot of annotation, so I won't, at this stage, deface it further. If I can be permitted to run with my belief that the killer instinctively made his initial move towards a safe haven, my thoughts are as follows (based, for the sake of argument, on the not inconsiderable assumption that all the possible sightings already referred to are in fact genuine.). I know they may not be, but just for the sake of argument...

Killer goes west along Bucks Row - therefore safe haven no further east than Bakers Row.
Killer goes east along Hanbury Street - therefore safe haven no further west than No.29.
Killer goes north-west along Berner St onto Church Lane - therefore safe haven no further south than Whitechapel Road and no further east than Union Street (otherwise why go past Commercial St / Union St junction?)
Killer goes north-east from Mitre Square at least as far as GSG - therefore safe haven no further south or west than that point.

All speculative, I know, but the only murder scene which would not be eliminated by such a process would be that of Martha Tabram in George Yard Buildings which just gets in above the GSG southern limit. The FBI view is that serial killers always commit their first killing in their primary comfort zone, near to their home. The area around Osborn Street looks interesting, especially as Osborn St / Whitechapel High St is where Polly Nichols was last seen. Was she taken east to Bucks Row to get her away from where JtR thought he might be recognised?

All hypothesis, I know, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that the killer lived somewhere in the area bordered by Wentworth St, Osborn St, Whitechapel High St & Commercial St. Does anyone know of a credible (i.e. not an Impressionist painter) suspect who may have lived there at the material time? Severin Klosowski perhaps. Any more?

Regards, Bridewell

This is a map from Rob House's book, JTR Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect. The homes listed labeled Woolf Abrahams, Matilda Lubnowski and Isaac Abrahams are Kosminksi's relatives, of which he lived with. You see he is in the thick of it...but I don't think he owned nary a paintbrush. He may have owned a knife.

[Bridewell]

Wickerman's

Fascinating speculations here, Bridewell. Unless I missed something, though, I don't see why you think it more likely that the killer went east on Hanbury Street.

Hi Maurice

It's something Wickerman posted in Post 25, of which I have no personal knowledge. I just ran with the sizeable assumption that all these possible sightings were genuine ones to see where it led.

Regards, Bridewell

[Ginger]

There's a very good 1894 Ordnance survey map on this site. Look under "official documents".

I've looked at the map referred to, which is the same one that I have. (I found it under Victorian London).

Hi Bridewell;

I think the one Steven was referring to was http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...map/index.html , which doesn't seem to have a toplink from 'Official Documents' for some reason, but can be found out with bloodhounds and a magnifying glass. It's laid out in clickable sectors, and is quite detailed.

The entire map can be downloaded at http://www.casebook.org/official_doc...d_map_full.jpg It's big (5M or so) but a very nicely detailed map of the East End, showing street names, courtyards, buildings, etc.

-Ginger

[Bridewell]

Hi Ginger,

Thanks for that. this looks like an enlarged version of the 1894 OS map. It's certainly useful - and good to know I haven't got to keep wearing out my printed version with constant folding & unfolding.

Best Wishes, Bridewell