Escape by freight train?

[K-453]

Could this have been possible?
“Jack” is climbing on a standing or still only slowly moving freight train after committing one of his murders and then speeding off to the countryside, while the police are turning the city upside down. At daylight, he returns.
Were the trains checked before they were allowed to leave the city?

[Adam Went]

The most important question in regards to a theory like that would be the times the freight cars ran in relation to the times of the murders, and exactly where the freight cars ran in relation to the murder scenes? I'm not sure about the answer to these questions but I don't know of any freight rails that were close by......interesting scenario though.

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Grave Maurice]

It may have been possible, but I don't see the point. I mean, all he had to do was go home (wherever that was) and go to sleep. Would there be any advantage in his leaving town overnight?

[K-453]

@ Adam Went: Buck’s Row bridged a railroad track with a freight train passing by at 3.30 AM the night of Polly’s murder. Too early, but it gave me the idea.

@ The Grave Maurice: Going home was surely more comfortable, but what if his way was blocked by all the cops searching for him? Weren’t there door-to-door searches?
Or maybe some attack of paranoia made him want to flee the city – who knows.
It is not a pet theory of mine, I’m just wondering.

[The Grave Maurice]

Hi K,

I don't know about the paranoia part, but there certainly weren't door-to-door searches after every murder. There was only one area inquiry that I know of, and that was conducted in daylight. However the police did stop "suspicious" men on the streets during some of the nights in question, so the best thing JtR could have done for his own safety was get home as quickly as possible.

And let's bear in mind the times of the murders (at least the C5). Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly were killed (and I'm just giving rough times here) between 3:30 and 5:30 am. By the time he had found and taken a train out of town, it would have been time to come back. Stride and Eddowes were killed early enough for JtR to catch a train but, again, I question what advantage he would gain. As long as he was off the streets, he didn't have much to worry about. Far wiser simply to go home.

[Adam Went]

Have to agree with GM, it's a plausible scenario and good, out-of-the-square thinking by yourself, K-453, but not the most likely scenario when weighed up against some others. Although it blends in nicely with discussions over the idea of Druitt being the killer and having to transport himself from Spitalfields to Blackheath in time to start his cricket match on September 8 - also a plausible but unlikely scenario....(I sense Jonathan H looming )

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jonathan H]

Only to reiterate, Adam, that if Macnaghten acted about the Ripper as every primary claims he acted about everything else, eg. obsessive, thorough, discreet -- and as he himself claimed he acted on 'secret information' in 1913, and then confirmed in his 1914 memoirs -- then he would have gladly exonerated Druitt if it was as simple as a cricket match alibi.

Yet, rightly or wrongly, Mac 'believed' that Druitt was the fiend.

The preface of those memoirs suggestively juxtaposes championship cricket, Jack the Ripper, and an apologia for 'inaccuracies'.

[PC Roadnight]

It is perhaps a mistake to assume that the Goods Vans and Wagons of the period were anything like the 'Freight Cars' of the USA. Goods trains were relatively shorter than their American counterparts and all had Guards vans. Part of the Guards duties were to look out (through side and/or top glass ducket panels) for any problems, including attempts to enter the wagons.

The likelihood of a, not particularly slow moving, goods train being a means of escape is, except in extremis, I suspect not very likely.

Using the railway track itself as a means of escape has its own problems, not the least that access was not easily obtained without arousing suspicions.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Could this have been possible?
“Jack” is climbing on a standing or still only slowly moving freight train after committing one of his murders and then speeding off to the countryside, while the police are turning the city upside down. At daylight, he returns.
Were the trains checked before they were allowed to leave the city?

On reflection it seems Jack must have made a cunning escape, well, to some.

The police had a very difficult job on their hands.

Consider this: in 1974, with superior crime apprehension technology, you have a rapist in Cambridge driving around on a bike dressed as a woman for crying out loud. He was caught only because he struck very close to where policemen were in hiding.

Consider this: the Yorkshire Ripper killed at least 13 women. He was caught on the off chance; a chance stop and search that revealed a collection of unsavoury items in his van (short of Jack running around the streets waving a uterus at all and sundry, he would have needed to have been caught red handed).

It is not as easy to catch criminals as is supposed in the cold light of day, and certainly wasn't in 1888.

The fella who was Jack simply walked off down the street and by the time the police had discovered the body and began the search, he was a good 20 minutes away and beyond the reach of the search.

[K-453]

good, out-of-the-square thinking by yourself

... a nice way of telling me how stupid I am, I guess?

Well, I wanted to use that in a story. Seems like “Jack’s” nice little countryside trip is cancelled.

Or, to alter the idea a bit: What if he stealthily climbed on some farmer’s carriage? Seems much more likely, now that I think of it. There must have been hundreds of them on market days.

Were Sundays market days?

[K-453]

(short of Jack running around the streets waving a uterus at all and sundry, he would have needed to have been caught red handed)

I keep wondering about his knife. Blade + handle, it must have had about 2/3 of the length of a modern computer keybord. That’s a sizeable weapon.
Uncomfortable to store in your clothes, difficult to get out quickly, and if the police give you a body search, and there is still blood on it – how to explain?

A bit off-topic ...

[Adam Went]

Jonathan:

I'm not disagreeing with you about any of that, but I think that it would be wise to, just for a moment, remove Macnaghten from the picture of Druitt as a suspect altogether, and focus solely on the case against Druitt. That's when the the pro's and con's become much more objective IMO.

It's certainly PLAUSIBLE that Druitt was in Spitalfields at 5.30 AM and got back to Blackheath in time for his cricket match, which i'm guessing would have started at or around 10 AM-ish, but that all circumstances considered, it's UNLIKELY that he would have done so. It's certainly not an alibi but it has the potential to be one if more information regarding his movements over those couple of days could be found out.

K-453:

Not at all! It's a perfectly sound suggestion, and in any case, sometimes consideration of bizarre scenarios leads to actual new links in the chain...

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jonathan H]

Fair point, Adam, but I would counter-argue that since it was plausible for him to be moving between parts of London, that is enough.

Consider that people who were exposed, at the time or a few years later, to the full Druitt-as-fiend story -- which we unfortunately are not -- did not see perceive any easy loopholes or alibis.

The man's family, an M.P., the 'good many' people he told, and a police chief all 'believed'.

Of course, they could all have made a hideous mistake. But I do not think they would have been easily mistaken.

Each had a motive to grasp for any mitigating circumstances to get Montie off, eg. wasn't he at a cricket match the next morning? He must have been mad, but not really a murderer for that is not possible to be at a cricket match the next morning -- thank God!

Druitt may not have been 'Jack', of course, but if the elementary pieces did not fit together at least in terms of getting from A to B, the family never would have, let us put it this way, fallen for a seriously ill member's ruinous delusion.

[The Grave Maurice]

I keep wondering about his knife...

I wouldn't. Virtually every man carried a knife in the LVP even if it was only a penknife. JtR could have carried it in a sheath, or strapped to his leg, or if it were, for example, a folding, lock-blade knife, in a pocket. If the police found him with a knife a block or two from a murder, even if it was dripping with blood, they'd have to let him go. The best the police could prove (maybe) was that the blood was mammalian, not that it was connected to the victim.

(As to Jonathan and Adam, they should take their Druitt debate back where it belongs---1980---and stop interrupting your thread.)

[Phil H]

Consider that people who were exposed, at the time or a few years later, to the full Druitt-as-fiend story -- which we unfortunately are not -- did not see perceive any easy loopholes or alibis.

As far as I am aware, we have no information or knowledge about WHY MJD was suspected, or rated so highly by Macnaghten.

It could have been a confession, of course, (or some similar writings - he seems to have left something, viz his statement about becomiong like his mother) On the whole, though, Druitt's emergence as a suspect doesn't make anything like that likely.

It could have been family suspicions related to his mental state and suicide.

It might just have been a link between the date of Druitt's suicide and the perceived end of the series of murders.

What we don't see, is any EVIDENCE - sightings of MJD in the East End, or a knife or other objects found in his rooms.

I was for many years in the 70s and 80s a convinced Druittist, so I have not dismissed him lightly. But when you look at it, everything against him is circumstantial - we cannot dismiss him entirely, because Sir Melville mentioned him and clearly gave the evidence he had considerable weight. But unless a file emerges, what do we have? Nothing solid.

There are other, perfectly good reasons for MJD's depression and suicide - a family trait, loss of his job, his mother's situation. In the climate of the 1880s he may even have kiled himself because his homosexuality or similar had been exposed. Did not the cricket club think he had "gone abroad"? - a possible euphemism and thus an indication of what the club thought, that he was indeed a homosexual evading arrest (cf Lord Euston).

As I have said, we have no actual evidence that he EVER visited the East End, no evidence that he was murderous - only that he was a reasonably successful lawyer and teacher (until something happened at the school); played cricket hours after a murders on occasion. There is no indication even of an interest in the East End a link to The Minories was exploded decades ago, as I recall. We have no evidence that he knew any of the victims.

Yes one could play games an show that MJD COULD have been JtR - plotting train times etc - but what a waste of time and effort. It would indicate nothing except potential and there must be plenty of other better candidates for that.

We know that Ostrog has a pretty solid alibi and thus was either a mistake for someone else (Le Grand?) or Macnaghten was misled. We have as yet no evidence as to why "Kosminski" was on his list. That must mean that there is a good chance that Sir Melville either chose three names from a list for an ulterior reason. Whatever he had been told about Druitt, his other names remain enigmatic, so why not MJD too. But, as I say, we cannot dismiss him at this stage.

On a wider issue

The discussion of whether "Jack" might have come and gone by train, or by using the rail tracks on foot, have been discussed many times, I think.

A moments look at the situation ON THE GROUND (as against on maps and plans) will show that this is far from easy.

The line at Buck's Row is many feet below street level. Close to Berner St the lines are raised up on viaducts/arches. Access by non-railway workers would have been far from easy.

OK, "Jack" might have travelled as a passenger, Aldgate East is close to Mitre Sq; Whitechapel St to Buck's Row; but there is no station close to Hanbury St (for instance).

The use of the word "freight train" interests me. It sounds like an American useage. I recall the "tramps" moved off freight cars near Dealey Plaza after Kennedy was shot; and numerous films with hobboes hopping on and off freight cars with ease. Also the lines do not simply run out to the suburbs but are part of a complex network.

Anyone seeking to research that angle would need to be a master of a lot of detail, I think.

I doubt its relevance, personally.

Phil