The Streets Of London

[Scorpio]

The established chronology of events on the 30th Sep state that Catherine Eddowes was last seen alive at 1.35 AM, and found dead at 1.45 AM in Mitre Sq. A piece of Eddowes bloody apron was found at Goulston St by PC Alfred Long at 2.55, but PC Long stated that he had patrolled the same spot at 2.20 and the apron piece was not present. The time differential between the murder and the aprons appearance in Goulston St can be no less than 35 minutes and possibly as much as approximately 70 minutes, but the distance between Mitre Sq and Goulston St can be covered in a fraction of the lower time estimate of 35 minutes and this suggests the apron piece was not dropped as the killer immediately vacated the neighbourhood. So what was the killer doing in this time?. The killer was not skulking in the passage way or stairwell of 118/119 Ghoulston St, because PC Long would have seen him. Did the killer pace around in the streets with the police descending on the area after the discovery of Eddowes body?.Did the killer make use of a public house or club, assuming they were open, with a bloody rag and human body parts stowed somewhere on his person. The possibility exists that the killer found sanctuary within the area, roughly within 30 minutes walk,or 1 and 1/2 miles at maximum. If you take the 70 minute upper limit and remove 8 minutes traversing time between Mitre Sq and Goulston St, then you have 62 minutes to play with, or 30 minutes to find sancuary,a few minutes to spare, and 30 minutes remaining to return to Goulston street just before PC Long arrives.

[Monty]

Add in the stop search policy of the Police, as demonstrated by DC Halse Scorpio, and youd have to question if he would stay out on the streets for that period.

Monty

[The Grave Maurice]

I continue to wonder why we are unwilling to accept that Alfred Long simply didn't notice the scrap of apron on his earlier pass by the stairway. This was, after all, a man who was dismissed the following summer for being drunk on duty.

[Scorpio]

I continue to wonder why we are unwilling to accept that Alfred Long simply didn't notice the scrap of apron on his earlier pass by the stairway. This was, after all, a man who was dismissed the following summer for being drunk on duty.

What is the motivation to lie?. Why would he insist it was not there?.
PC Long would not have been accepted to note every piece of rubbish on the streets of an over populated slum.

[Bridewell]

The Motivation to Lie

What is the motivation to lie?. Why would he insist it was not there?.

Hi Scorpio,

If he didn't check the stairwell as he should have done at 2.20am the motivation to lie would be concealment of his negligence.

PC Long would not have been expected to note every piece of rubbish on the streets of an over populated slum.

The body of Liz Stride had been found well over an hour before, about half a mile away on the Division where he was patrolling. The body of Kate Eddowes had been discovered 35 minutes previously, in the small hours of the morning, and in a city where there were no motor vehicles on the streets and where a police whistle had been blown - about 400 yards away. If Pc Long didn't know something serious had happened that night he must have been operating in a time warp. If the 'piece of rubbish' was a sizeable piece of bloodstained apron (which it was) then, yes, he should have noted it IMHO.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Cogidubnus]

Let's be honest...I guess the police beats involved the public streets and no more...private hallways and courtyards were different...so the beat copper probably wasn't really negligent...just didn't look too far beyond his statutory duties....

Dave

[Wickerman]

I question the use of the charge that PC Long was let go for being drunk, as if this implies he was untruthful. Being let go for drinking problems was not uncommon in the 19th century.
Judging PC Long by our standards today is unrealistic.

There would be nothing negligent about PC Long giving an honest answer that he had not noticed it on his previous round, had that been the case.

Regards, Jon S.

[Bridewell]

Negligence

There would be nothing negligent about PC Long giving an honest answer that he had not noticed it on his previous round, had that been the case.

I agree, Jon, but he didn't say that he hadn't noticed it, he said that it wasn't there:

"I passed that spot where the apron was found about 2.20, the apron was not there when I passed then".

I just find the scenario of the killer remaining within a 5 - 10 minute walk of Mitre Square for more than 40 minutes - or returning to dispose of the apron after making his getaway less believable than the possibility of Pc Long not having checked the stairwell on his earlier visit. It's not proveable either way, but my suspicion is that he didn't check.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Scorpio]

I agree, Jon, but he didn't say that he hadn't noticed it, he said that it wasn't there:

"I passed that spot where the apron was found about 2.20, the apron was not there when I passed then".

I just find the scenario of the killer remaining within a 5 - 10 minute walk of Mitre Square for more than 40 minutes - or returning to dispose of the apron after making his getaway less believable than the possibility of Pc Long not having checked the stairwell on his earlier visit. It's not proveable either way, but my suspicion is that he didn't check.

Regards, Bridewell.

So why did he check the second time around, if not the first?.
If you accept that the piece of apron was taken for the purposes of concealing human tissue, as i do; then why would he dispose of it before finding another recepticle or safe place to conceal it?.

[Bridewell]

So why did he check the second time around, if not the first?

Because he hadn't checked the first time and knew that he should have done so.

If you accept that the piece of apron was taken for the purposes of concealing human tissue, as i do; then why would he dispose of it before finding another recepticle or safe place to conceal it?.

I don't accept that the piece of apron was taken for the purposes of concealing human tissue.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

It wasn't uncommon for PCs to do slightly differing things during their beats.

Watkins, for example, states that he sometimes left Mitre Square via St James passage than Mitre st.

It depends on if they had times to make up.

On point I'd like to make, suppose Long set a peel or bone trap in the Dwellings entrance, it may be that he was checking.

However, I'm sure he would have mentioned that.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Peel or Bone Trap

On point I'd like to make, suppose Long set a peel or bone trap in the Dwellings entrance, it may be that he was checking.

However, I'm sure he would have mentioned that.

Monty

Hi Monty,

I have a horrible feeling that I should know this, but what are peel and bone traps?

Regards, Bridewell

[Monty]

Hi Colin,

PCs placed pieces of Whale bone, or Orange peel, in cracks of doors or widows in certain buildings at the begining of their beats. They checked them every so often. If they were out of place then someone had been checking the door or windows.

It was an old 'trick' which carried on through to Don Rumbelows day. He told me he used thread. He also mentioned that when he was doing his round in Mitre Square (yes, Don did Watkins beat) some joker colleague replaced his thread with a paper chain.

Monty

[Debra A]

LOL
I thought they shoved matchsticks in the cracks and had to incorporate time into their beats to pick up orange peel from the streets!
...How wrong can a girl be?!

[Monty]

LOL
I thought they shoved matchsticks in the cracks and had to incorporate time into their beats to pick up orange peel from the streets!
...How wrong can a girl be?!

They used whatever came to hand Debs.

Monty