the Goulston St Graffiti

[mariab]

To Protohistorian:
I'm so sorry, I'm a total nil in London history (I only know Paris and Naples well), does the map you've so kindly posted feature the entire 1899 London, or just the East End? (I'm almost prepared to go out on a limb and say, the entire London.) What does the green line signify? The location of the Ripper murder sites? It's a pity that the image doesn't magnify, so I can read the names of the streets. (With apologies for being so difficult to satisfy.)

[Defective Detective]

Hello DD. the psychology of the killer/s seems obvious--a cold blooded assassin/s.

I was actually inquiring as to your opinion on the victimology that can be drawn from my ideas.

At any rate, the phrase 'cold-blooded assassin/s' implies to me a certain mission-oriented rationality that I just don't see in the Whitechapel murders. I agree with mariab; even discounting Martha Tabram as some are wont to do - in fact, even and especially discounting Elizabeth Stride, as you seem to prefer - there is a definite escalation or 'ratcheting' effect at work in the murders that seems to me to preclude murder by an official agency, be it the Okhrana or employees of Dr. Gull, and which seem to suggest a more psychological, or at least personal, motive. I would expect institutional murder to be done quietly and efficiently and not with an eye towards posing the bodies in semi-suggestive fashions.

I could much more believe the Thames Torso Murders the result of such a conspiracy than I can those traditionally assigned to the Ripper, because, in those cases, there was at least an attempt made to prevent the discovery of the victims, which would keep in-line with historical political assassinations.

Moreover, I object to your scenario in particular because it seems to be a frankly backwards way of the Okhrana to go about framing the Russian emigrant community in Whitechapel. I should think they'd be better served by assassinating some local officio and laying the blame at the feet of the anarchists, not destitute 'unfortunates' who, if not for the brutality of the crimes committed against them, would not be missed.

I think the apron bearer/graffito writer was as clumsy as he was inept. I could think of much better messages to have gotten the job done.

I don't disagree with you. But that certainly doesn't preclude a connection there.

By the way, Ockham's Razor contains a clause that is easily overlooked--"sine necessitate." So, if cutting down on one's ontological commitments precludes finding a successful conclusion, then add that extra entity!

But there are successful conclusions that can be drawn that do not necessitate political conspiracy by the agents of foreign powers, all the while remaining just as internally consistent as that conclusion.

[mariab]

Lynn, of course Mary Kelly had nothing whatsoever to do with the Okhrana! And I don't agree that we're desperately trying pounding square pegs into round holes when considering the Ripper murders as a progression. It all fits together very nicely, if you ask me.
I just wish that Monty logs in tomorrow and produces some info about the other graffiti on Berner Street and Hanburry Street, I'm curious to see what the typical Victorian Whitechapel graffito looked like...

[lynn cates]

explanation

Hello DD. Your schema for implication would work fine--in normal circumstances. But here, it seems, a lunatic pork butcher had already gotten the ball rolling by killing Polly and Annie. Why not capitalize on his work? After all, he was described as foreign looking.

By the way, those who default to the "increased level of violence" paradigm must always place brackets around Liz. Of course, one may always advert to the deus ex machina of, "Ah! Interruption!" But without evidence, that seems to be another violation of parsimony.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

luck

Hello Maria. Well, good luck with it.

Cheers.
LC

[Defective Detective]

Hello DD. Your schema for implication would work fine--in normal circumstances. But here, it seems, a lunatic pork butcher had already gotten the ball rolling by killing Polly and Annie. Why not capitalize on his work? After all, he was described as foreign looking.

Sure. But now you've introduced a new element without dispensing with the old - what became of our lunatic pork butcher, and why did he stop killing at two, only to permit the Okhrana to come in and continue his work?

By the way, those who default to the "increased level of violence" paradigm must always place brackets around Liz. Of course, one may always advert to the deus ex machina of, "Ah! Interruption!" But without evidence, that seems to be another violation of parsimony.

I don't particularly think that Stride negates the idea of ratcheting even if she were a Ripper victim and even if he weren't interrupted (which I do and don't agree with, respectively). I've always interpreted the relatively benign wounds inflicted on Stride as a sign of triumphalism - after two (or three) successful murders, the Ripper began to feel invincible, and decided that he'd rather revel in his seeming invisibility to the police by committing another murder the same night than stick around and finish what he started with Stride. In other words, I feel the Ripper began to get so excited with the idea of himself that he 'bloodlusted', for lack of a better term, and seeing as Stride was already dead, needed someone with rather more vitality in them to take it out upon.

[mariab]

Lynn,
“interrupted“ and our friend the Diemster as a deus ex machina I have no problem whatsoever in admitting in the Stride case.
Luck is something I'll need in buckets for the coming weeks. Can't have too much of it!
Careful with your wive's neck. Are you going to use anything for blood? (New posters like Detective Detective might probably feel like calling the police or the admin here!)

[Monty]

Monty wrote:
Graffiti was found near Hanbury Street and we have photographic evidence, albeit some years later, of graffiti in both Berner Street and Hanbury Street.
Monty,
would you inform us on what precisely did the graffiti in Berner Street and Hanbury Street say, and where I could further read about this?
By the by, we recectly located a (sadly, much less ancient) graffito on the alleged wall of the White House. (Not the American White House, the one in Whitechapel.)
Thank you.

Hi Maria,

Apologies, that should be photographic evidence in Berner Street not Hanbury Street.

Though there is a report of the imfamous '15 more' writing in Hanbury street.

Please see the photos below, Ive ringed the chalked graffiti.

Monty

[mariab]

Thank you so much, Monty.
Either my eyes are not good, or these are drawings, with no text.
Could you direct me to where I could read more about the infamous “15 more“ writing in Hanbury street? I don't recall at what time it did appear. (Obviously, after September 7, 1888!)

[Fisherman]

Although it would of course be desirable, Maria, we should perhaps not ask for clear contemporary pictures of chalked messages discussing the pros and cons of the East end Jews.
Monty´s pictures from Berner Street and Dorset Street tells us that people used chalk on the walls to express themselves, and we know that the Jew issue was a very inflamed thing back then; the talk of the town, more or less.
Concluding that chalked messages about Jews would be anything but unexpected in the time and place we take an interest in is not a very hard thing to do after that. For that is what graffiti is all about - it´s the common man´s channel for expressing the common man´s wiew of his world.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Sure, Fisherman. But I actually expected Monty's graffiti to be much older! (Sorry for the misunderstanding.)

[Monty]

Maria,

I think its the Times of 20th September which holds the Hanbury street quote.

The Berner Street photo, which does hold text, is dated c1909. The Dorset Street on is C1920s.

Are we suggesting wall writing started post 1888?

Monty

[mariab]

Thank you so much, Monty.
Hey, wall-writing started in prehistoric caves!

[Monty]

Yeah, I wrote about that.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-gsgdebate.html

Monty

[mariab]

Thank you so much again, Monty, for directing me to your dissertation. Very interesting, especially pertaining to the rain and the light. And by the way, I too have thought about the “connectivity“ of this case and the Zodiac case, with the piece of shirt cut from the cab driver and sent to the police. (And I've always thought there are even more similarities between the JTR case and the Zodiac.)