the Goulston St Graffiti

[Fisherman]

David:

"...the height at which the GSG has been written makes the piece of apron its likely signature."

..or the writer short: "a round SCHOOLBOY hand", was it?

If the killer really had felt the need to couple the two items, apron and text, he could have written much further down, or he could - quite simply - have drawn an arrow, pointing to the floor.

... but that would have been to be clear, would it not - and our killer seems to have taken every possible precaution to stay as unclear as possible, for some reason ...?

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
So he did NOTR indulge himself in Eddowes?
Not by a long shot as extensively and privately as he did with Mary Kelly.
After the extensive Mary Kelly deed, which concerning privacy was a completely new experience to him, it's very unlikely that he would have spared a thought to the “Jewish question“, which was SOLELY a factor in the night of September 30 anyway. (And we obviously don't -yet?- know if the Jewish component in the night of the double event was intentional or not, but my guess is that, intentional or not, it was essentially connected to the IWMC.)

[mariab]

Fisherman wrote:
If the killer really had felt the need to couple the two items, apron and text, he could have written much further down, or he could - quite simply - have drawn an arrow, pointing to the floor.
Oh, come on, Fish! Maybe he should rather have constructed a collage with the bloody apron ON the graffito? Would that have been enough evidence for you?

Fisherman wrote:
The lack of any such communication in Miller´s court, or after it, is a clear indicator that he either was of a different mindset after that deed than after Mitre Square
Spot on.

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"Maybe he should rather have constructed a collage with the bloody apron ON the graffito? Would that have been enough evidence for you?"

You are of course trying irony here, Maria - but have a look at what this actually tells us: that there WERE many a possibility open to create a message that was unmistakably made by the Ripper. I have formerly suggested that if he had nailed the rag to a door with his knife before he wrote the message, we would equally have a much more efficient message. And if you think that it would be strange to claim a set of murders by chalking an arrow, I can tell you that it would be much more odd to try and do it by writing "The Jews are the men who will not be blamed for nothing"...!

In conclusion, if you think you have enough evidence to make your call, Maria, I can only congratulate you on having found the easy path of Ripperology! Won´t walk it with you, though.

"So he did NOT indulge himself in Eddowes? (my question)
Not by a long shot as extensively and privately as he did with Mary Kelly. (Marias answer)

Not as extensively, no. And not as privately, no. But second for second, he may well have been very much more indulged as he cut Eddowes, for that was a situation where only the fewest of minutes were at his disposition.

"it's very unlikely that he would have spared a thought to the “Jewish question“, which was SOLELY a factor in the night of September 30 anyway"

Not if you ask the Hutchinsonians, it wasn´t - for they (some of them, at least) mean that George Hutchinsons testimony was aimed at scapegoating Jews too.
Anyway, if the killer only tried his hands at scapegoating on September 30, and let the chance to cement it slip through his fingers in a situation where he could have written a lenghty essay on Mary Kelly´s walls, I still say he was acting very irrationally. And I still say that the lack of any substantiation in the form of further communication on behalf of the killer speaks loudly against him having any anti-Jewish agenda on the whole - no matter what day we are looking at.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Well... the reason I opt for JTR not writing the graffiti, but gaining personal meaning from it is that he didn't leave any other messages at the other scenes. Sometimes folks infer messages from things like the positions of the bodies and blood splatters, but there was no other written communication. Why not? Because he didn't write it. This one time he read something he agreed with and decided to drop a trophy by it. There were no other opportunities that he saw, and perhaps because only this graffiti was close enough to his home that he did see it on his way to work or leaving for a kill. The coincidence of an apron and graffiti found together without intention is difficult to reconcile, though it is possible.

Again, he didn't write it, but it was his.

Mike

[DVV]

I still say that the lack of any substantiation in the form of further communication on behalf of the killer speaks loudly against him having any anti-Jewish agenda on the whole - no matter what day we are looking at.

Fisherman

Hi Fish,

No matter the day we are looking at ?
Well, bear in mind that his name was Leather Apron in September.

Amitiés
David

[mariab]

Fish,
no irony was directed at you personally (though you must admit that your suggestion to David that the Ripper might have drawn an arrow under the GSG pointing to the ground/at the piece of apron was ludicrously, puerily phantastical.).
As I've stated in almost every single one of my posts in this thread, due to lack of evidence all speculation about the GSG has no other possibility but to remain simple conjecture. I'm not pretending in any way whatsoever that I would even dream of expressing an informed opinion about the GSG. Monty (Neal Bell) is the authority on this particular branch of Ripperology, and I'm here to listen and learn as much as possible from him. Thus, please don't worry, I will never seek out the easy path in Ripperology (or in anything else, for that matter), and that's a solemn promise!
Apart from this, my marginally informed opinion is that the shared location of the graffito and of the apron is not a coincidence. Due to lack of evidence and sufficient information, I'm not prepared or able to form an opinion about who and when wrote the graffito.
Pertaining to Miller's Court, obviously George Hutchinson's testimony was aimed at scapegoating Jews too, but we were talking about the perp's antisemitic actions, werent' we? Unless you do consider Hutchinson as either a suspect or an associate in Mary Kelly's murder.
My suspicion (and I'm currently researching this) is that the Ripper not only just tried his hands at scapegoating on September 30, but either was enraged at the IWMC Jews for interrupting him with Stride (as Abby discussed earlier in this thread), or there might have been an even more intentional agenda. I happen to know that you consider Stride a domestic killing by an “unknown lover“, so I expect you to disagree in this instance.
So far, I'm NOT considering the Ripper as having any anti-Jewish agenda generally, but (possibly) specifically in the night of september 30. There are dozens of scenarios pertaining to his possible motivation for such, and, as I said, research pertaining to this is pending.

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"You must admit that your suggestion to David that the Ripper might have drawn an arrow under the GSG pointing to the ground/at the piece of apron was ludicrously, puerily phantastical."

Actually, I must nothing of the sort. If Heirens had not written "Catch me before I kill again" on that mirror, and it had been suggested as a possibility afterwards, I suppose that would have seemed strange too. But he did. Then why would it have been "ludicruos" if the Ripper had taken some sort of precaution to ensure that his message came across? Hm? If he had such an inclination, that is ...

"Monty (Neal Bell) is the authority on this particular branch of Ripperology, and I'm here to listen and learn as much as possible from him."

Now, that´s reassuring!

"my marginally informed opinion is that the shared location of the graffito and of the apron is not a coincidence"

Be my guest. Just keep in mind that if the rag had been found in a barber´s doorway, it had been discussed today if that barber in particular, or barbers on the whole, had something to do with the killings. If it had been found outside a greengrocers shop - same story. Outside McCarthys shop in particular - geez!
There was effectively not a single place around where that rag could have landed, that would not have caused far-reaching theories today. And in many, many of those places, there would be graffiti nearby, just as confusing - or confusable - as that in the Wentworth Model Buildings. And a good deal of that graffiti would have expressed one opinion or another pertaining to Jews - or other fractions of the East end citizens. Some - perhaps many, that is at least my guess - would have alluded to the Ripper. And in each and every case, we could come up with either a marginally informed opinion that there would have been a connection of rag/establishment/graffiti, or the insight that nothing at all points conclusively in that direction. Each and every such assumption needs a good deal of faith on behalf of the interpretor.

"Pertaining to Miller's Court, obviously George Hutchinson's testimony was aimed at scapegoating Jews too, but we were talking about the perp's antisemitic actions, werent' we? Unless you do consider Hutchinson as either a suspect or an associate in Mary Kelly's murder."

He was not the killer, of that I´m pretty sure. He may, though, have been an accomplice, of course. Those who, however, count him as the probable killer, also to some extent count his pointing out of Astrakhan man as the possible killer as a way of implicating the Jews. Therefore, in the context given, he belongs to this discussion.

"My suspicion (and I'm currently researching this) is that the Ripper not only just tried his hands at scapegoating on September 30, but either was enraged at the IWMC Jews for interrupting him with Stride (as Abby discussed earlier in this thread), or there might have been an even more intentional agenda. I happen to know that you consider Stride a domestic killing by an “unknown lover“, so I expect you to disagree in this instance."

Up til the point that you or somebody else comes up with useful evidence to the contrary, yes. If and when you do - different story.

"So far, I'm NOT considering the Ripper as having any anti-Jewish agenda generally, but (possibly) specifically in the night of september 30."

That means something like Ben´s suggestion of a spur-of-the-moment insight that there was at hand a good chance to throw suspicion away from himself and at the Jews. Such a thing is completely impossible to argue against, since it is nothing but a "what if...?" suggestion. It carries a very low specific weight to my mind.

"There are dozens of scenarios pertaining to his possible motivation for such, and, as I said, research pertaining to this is pending."

I am happy that somebody is researching it, should it prove to be a fruitful alley, Maria. And I´m equally happy that this somebody is not me!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Mike:

"This one time he read something he agreed with and decided to drop a trophy by it."

Let´s just say that if I had been the Ripper and if I had been trying to figure out whether I agreed with the message or not, I would still be standing out on Goulston Street, scratching my head.

I think, Mike, that if there had been no graffiti inside that doorway, we would still discuss whether he threw the rag in the Wentworth Model Buildings to implicate Jews for the killings. And that is as it should be, just as it is as it should be that we take a long hard look at the GSG itself. After that, if we find ourselves scratching our heads, let´s take it from there!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

David:

"No matter the day we are looking at ?"

Maria and I were discussing KILLING days, David!

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Let´s just say that if I had been the Ripper and if I had been trying to figure out whether I agreed with the message or not, I would still be standing out on Goulston Street, scratching my head.

Me too, but that's because neither of us has an agenda that makes us see something that may not be there. Well, I have an agenda of finding good ales, but it's not an agenda of hatred, nor is it an agenda of anger.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mike:

"Well, I have an agenda of finding good ales, but it's not an agenda of hatred, nor is it an agenda of anger."

That´s just because the ale is pretty cheap in Kazakhstan - ordering a beer here in Sweden quickly turns into an agenda of horrendeous things.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Fish,
Heirens and his "Catch me before I kill again" lipstick graffito on a mirror is extremely atypical in serial killer lore.
Fisherman wrote:
Just keep in mind that if the rag had been found in a barber´s doorway, it had been discussed today if that barber in particular, or barbers on the whole, had something to do with the killings.
Certainly. But as it happened, it was found on the wall by the Wentworth Model Buildings, so this is what we have in our hands to research and speculate about. And I'm really curious to hear what Monty thinks about this.
Fisherman wrote:
There was effectively not a single place around where that rag could have landed, that would not have caused far-reaching theories today. And in many, many of those places, there would be graffiti nearby, just as confusing - or confusable - as that in the Wentworth Model Buildings. And a good deal of that graffiti would have expressed one opinion or another pertaining to Jews - or other fractions of the East end citizens. Some - perhaps many, that is at least my guess - would have alluded to the Ripper.
That's precisely why I asked around what the other, known to us Victorian graffiti featured as a message. Nobody so far reported anything about antisemitic messages. There was graffiti pertaining to the Ripper murder on Hanbury Street, discussed in The Echo of September 4, 1888. Plus Walter Dew (I know, there's a reliable source!) claims in his memoires that the name “Jack the Ripper“ allegedly appeared in graffitis from quite early on in the series of murders, allegedly predating the “Dear Boss“ letter. I'd be very interested to hear Monty's view on this.
As for Hutchinson having possibly been an accomplish to the Ripper, this is an old hut. I wouldn't mind checking up Hutchinson for criminal records, but I strongly assume that this has been done already, otherwise it would appear differently in the specific threads devoted to him. After all, he's been considered as a suspect since many years, even books have been written about him.
Fisherman wrote:
Up til the point that you or somebody else comes up with useful evidence to the contrary, yes. I am happy that somebody is researching it, should it prove to be a fruitful alley, Maria. And I´m equally happy that this somebody is not me!
Without research, all else is iddle talk and conjecture. What evidence can you provide for the existence of an “unknown lover“ for Stride?
No “spur-of-the-moment“ antisemitism on September 30, 1888. As I've said, it might have originated from all kinds of different reasons or impulses: It can be as harmless as that the Ripper might have been pissed off by a Jewish neighbour on that day, or (more likely) he might have become irate against the IWMC for interrupting him with Stride, or (more farfetched) he might have even been recruited by the Okhrana...!

[mariab]

How much does a bottle of Heineken cost in Sweden today, Fish? (I'm almost scared to hear the answer.) And I wonder if there's climbing in Astana, Kazachstan? I bet there is!
Ugh. I looked it up and it's apparently all flat in the steppe...

[Fisherman]

MAria:

"Heirens and his "Catch me before I kill again" lipstick graffito on a mirror is extremely atypical in serial killer lore."

...whereas the GSG, if written by the killer, is ...?

"What evidence can you provide for the existence of an “unknown lover“ for Stride?"

How about two different witnesses testifying to Stride having claimed that she lived with a man in Fashion Street?

"How much does a bottle of Heineken cost in Sweden today, Fish?"

You don´t really want to know, Maria. But if you persist: In Stockholm, at the Café Opera, a 33 cl bottle will cost 70 Skr, equating around 11 US dollars. Cheers!

As for the climbing in Kazakhstan, ask Mike - he´s climbing career ladders over there!

The best,
Fisherman