Bloody Tourists

[Sally]

Marauder?

I don't know very much about models. I would like to know more! Can somebody be kind enough to point me in the direction of a good book or two?

Cheers

Sally

[Scorpio]

You might try Mapping Murder, or criminal shadows by Dr David Canter. Very interesting stuff.

[Sally]

You might try Mapping Murder, or criminal shadows by Dr David Canter. Very interesting stuff.

Thanks for the tips Scorpio!

Out of interest, how would you define a 'tourist' in terms of distance from the murder sites - or is that irrelevant? I mean, if the killer lived in a neighbouring area in the East end - St George in the East, Shadwell, even Ratcliffe - would that make him a tourist? He could have lived in some locations there and been in Whitechapel very quickly.

I think the idea of a commuter is very interesting.

Best regards

Sally

[Scorpio]

Hi, I would define a tourist as someone who enters a finite area for a finite purpose and the time/distance that a fairly unsophisticated criminal, as i believe Jack to be, is willing to invest, when on foot in an urban environment, is pretty limited. I doubt he would spend any more than about 45 minutes, or roughly 2 miles, in transit, but possibly a great deal less. I need to collect alot more data before i can make a good call on this.

[Hunter]

Sailors, merchant seamen and dock workers were known to frequent areas as far north as Spitafields and beyond on a regular bases; although it is likely that they would confine themselves to the major avenues as much as possible. It was after the pubs closed that many of these individuals would take the back streets back to their lodgings along the old Ratcliff Highway and the area just south of it... and certainly the 'street walkers' knew the best locations to intercept them. Since all of the murders took place 'after hours' there are many (including Inspector Moore himself) that thought the murders could have been committed by such an individual.

The caveat there, in my opinion, is the direction the killer seemed to take after leaving Mitre Square on the night of the double murder and the very late hour that Annie Chapman was apparently killed in Hanbury St.

Unfortunately, much opinion revolves around what one's particular suspect is in determining where it is believed the killer may have been from. Certainly, there had to be a reason for these murders to have taken place in a very constricted area and short timeframe as well... coupled with the fact that all of the locations were very high risks; even for someone who knew the area very well. He either knew the police beats or was exceptionally fortunate in not being encountered by uniformed officers while making his escape.

Wherever he went, he went in the right direction every time... either by accident or design. The escape from Mitre Square (given the heightened security of the City Police) was nothing short of amazing.

[Scorpio]

Mind Map

David Canter's mind map idea is the construct that really allows the Commuter model to exist. After all the movies,TV shows, and documentaries, followers of the case will have no doubt developed there own mind map of Victorian Whitechapel. Perhaps your map looks something like this: a busy thouroughfare or two ( Whitechapel High St or Commercial St ), and a collection of names and images representing the squalid streets attached to it; maybe you have a particular building in mind ( a pub,police station, or lodging house ) and can place it with reasonable accuracy. You can be removed from an area in space and even time, yet still posses a pratical image of it. But JtR's map would be quite different from yours or mine. Pratical experience of the neighbourhood would make Jacks map much more quantitatively detailed than ours; but it is the qualitative differences which really count. Jacks map would have been a living place full of movement and emotional effect;it was a motivating factor which would have preceded the crimes afterall: a sort of fantasy land where he roamed and rehearsed, untill he was ready to begin.

[Phil H]

Scorpio, you use a lot of words, but what do you actually say - that jack knew his neighbourhood?

Surely he knew it (whether as a regular visitor, or IMHO more likely as a resident) well and in a way we never can.

Our mental constructs are irrelevent. We cannot know the precise way in which the area operated in 1888 - he would have known the busy pubs and the empty ones, the darkest corners and the back-doubles. A place changes in a few years, people move, shops close, businesses change hands, the developers move in - only someone who walks around, uses and maybe works in a place can ever be au fait with all of that. And I believe Jack was.

For instance, I think it is almost self-evident, he knew the backyard of No 29 Hanbury St from previous visits.

Phil H

[Scorpio]

Scorpio, you use a lot of words, but what do you actually say - that jack knew his neighbourhood?

Surely he knew it (whether as a regular visitor, or IMHO more likely as a resident) well and in a way we never can.

Our mental constructs are irrelevent. We cannot know the precise way in which the area operated in 1888 - he would have known the busy pubs and the empty ones, the darkest corners and the back-doubles. A place changes in a few years, people move, shops close, businesses change hands, the developers move in - only someone who walks around, uses and maybe works in a place can ever be au fait with all of that. And I believe Jack was.

For instance, I think it is almost self-evident, he knew the backyard of No 29 Hanbury St from previous visits.

Phil H

I think that the mind map idea shows us that even limited experience of an environment can be meaningful and functional; this is relevant to the commuter model.

[Phil H]

I wonder, frankly, whether "even limited experience of an environment can be meaningful and functional" when related to Whitechapel in 1888.

Unless someone has an intimate idea of even quite busy streets, such as Hanbury St, how could they know what lay behind the front door? The fact that there was a corridor and a second door, meant that even passing No 29 when the front door was open, would give little away.

The back streets would have been a nightmare at night. I recall my first visit to Buck's Row (Durward St) in the mid 70s. Even with the demolitions that had taken place by then, I had no idea where I was going as I turned off Whitechapel Rd. At night, in the relative dark - the streetlamps were weak and far apart, the towering wharehouses and with any noises from the railway, it must have been creepy indeed.

Whitechapel/Spitalfields in that year was full of cut-throughs and cul-de-sacs where a stranger would be noticed and suspected immediately. Remember mccartney could see into Millers Court from his shop. People watched.

One thing we can say about JtR was that he KNEW his "patch" in great detail - not in the way a visitor might, but as someone who prowled it and was probably known, giving him access or at least an excuse to be where he was.

Sorry, I am suspicious of this sort of "modelling" which (whatever its value today) I fear might be hugely anachronistic in relation to 1888.

[Bridewell]

Local Man

Unless someone has an intimate idea of even quite busy streets, such as Hanbury St, how could they know what lay behind the front door? The fact that there was a corridor and a second door, meant that even passing No 29 when the front door was open, would give little away.

One thing we can say about JtR was that he KNEW his "patch" in great detail - not in the way a visitor might, but as someone who prowled it and was probably known, giving him access or at least an excuse to be where he was.

Hi Phil,

I'm sure you're right about JtR being a local man. I think he was more organised than he is given credit for. It wasn't all down to blind luck that he wasn't caught. Local man but, for some reason, never suspected.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Phil H]

Or suspected, but no real evidence. Not that I have any one specifically in mind, but the Kosminski "type" seems likely to me.

I find that I come back more and more to the No29 situation as revealing.

To my mind he HAD to have known what was beyond those two doors before being taken by, or taking Annie down that passage.

Any other scenario seems to me to infer that he never took "risk" into consideration, or was a fool. Anything could have been awaiting him in the "backyard" - especially if it was already daylight - with windows looking down etc, people stirring. OK, his INITIAL excuse might have been "I only came here for a knee-trembler, sorry to disturb you," but what if someone stumbled upon him once he had started his work.

I think he KNEW what was behind No 29 - he had been there either as a client, a resident, or as a worker in one of the businesses - packing cases? Or could he have been a cats' meat seller?

Incidentally, I read only recently that Cadosch (admittedly now known as unreliable) said that people at No 29 often stirred early. That is BEFORE 5.30ish by implication. We know of activity in the yard - Richardson etc. So I have come to the conclusion that Phillips was right when he reckoned the time of death at around 2 hours before 6.30am - ie in darkness around 4.00-4.30ish. That would have been safer and does not have a decrepit and sick Annie stumbling around the streets so long.

Just my opinion, of course.

Phil H

[Rob1n]

I think he probably lived not too far away, he could probably just become the Grey man and not easily be noticed, I think he'd either have to work near by or be able to get in and out quickly but, not too far away as he would be tired and possibly in no fit state to murder efficiently as he did, he was obviously very confident and very strong, he either used a disguise or "fitted in" with local working types.

I did once hear that it was thought a Policeman was doing it but, that was years go and I've not herd that one again?

Then again, was he known to and even trusted by the girls, how could he have committed the Mitre sq killing so quickly, so close o the police patrols, how the hell did he get out of that sq without being caught?

Silly question time, did they have street cleaners then, or could he have been one of those men who went around lighting/putting out the street gas lamps and so boldly move around freely?

[Scorpio]

I think he probably lived not too far away, he could probably just become the Grey man and not easily be noticed, I think he'd either have to work near by or be able to get in and out quickly but, not too far away as he would be tired and possibly in no fit state to murder efficiently as he did, he was obviously very confident and very strong, he either used a disguise or "fitted in" with local working types.

I did once hear that it was thought a Policeman was doing it but, that was years go and I've not herd that one again?

Then again, was he known to and even trusted by the girls, how could he have committed the Mitre sq killing so quickly, so close o the police patrols, how the hell did he get out of that sq without being caught?

Silly question time, did they have street cleaners then, or could he have been one of those men who went around lighting/putting out the street gas lamps and so boldly move around freely?

I believe London had street cleaners at this time, but some Boroughs had more money than others to spend.

[crberger]

Phil,
I have spent time after my regular duty, actually teaching English to prostitutes, in places that seem to be quite a bit like Whitechapel. They were an absolute nightmare, even after 14-16 months I could easily get turned around and end up completely lost. IMO only someone intimately, no pun intended, with the area could avoid detection.

[Bridewell]

Calculated Risk

Then again, was he known to and even trusted by the girls, how could he have committed the Mitre sq killing so quickly without being caught, so close to the police patrols, how the hell did he get out of that sq?

Hi Robin,

If he had good awareness of local police procedures, he could work it so that the odds were in his favour. The same officer (Watkin on the night in question) patrolled both Mitre Square and St James' Square. If the killer waited until he heard Watkin approaching along Mitre Street he could be pretty confident that his own escape route through St James' Passage was clear - of uniformed officers anyway.