Steps To The Nelson?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris,

I don't know east from west. It's some sort of learning disability. Which way are you saying Schwartz ran - left in the direction of Batty Street and the beehive or right in the other direction?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

I don't know east from west. It's some sort of learning disability. Which way are you saying Schwartz ran - left in the direction of Batty Street and the beehive or right in the other direction?

If the railway arch mentioned in Swanson's report is the one in Backchurch Lane, then I assume that means he turned right, towards Backchurch Lane.

[Fleetwood Mac]

But if Pipeman was on the Nelson side of the street, it makes perfect sence that Pipeman tears after Schwartz who in turn runs down Fairclough street, which would put him running away from Pipeman, not towards him.

You would have to believe that Schwartz could get to the corner of that street before Pipe Man. I'd imagine there were more houses down the end of Berner Street where Schwarz had come from. So BS Man must see him and call out at the very latest while Schwarz and BS Man are roughly the same distance up the street.....but that's unlikely as apparently BS Man is on the pavement and must see Schwartz earlier. Now if he sees him when they're about level then Pipe Man gets to the corner before Schwartz...still.....and if BS Man sees him earlier which is likely....then either Pipe Man is walking in a pair of high heels and he's struggling to gain much ground....or there's no way in this world that Schwartz can get to that corner before Pipe Man.

Conclusion: Schwartz is still moving towards Pipe Man as he's supposedy chased away.

The alternative is that BS Man calls out....he and his accomplice allow Schwartz to stroll past the crime scene and then past both of them....and then decide to run after him. Not that ain't much of double act.....and you'd fancy that they would have been caught carrying on like that.

Doesn't add up....

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Fleetwood,

So you're agreeing with me?

Chris,

I'll have to think on that. Is there a specific reason you think the railway arches on Backchurch lane are the arches Schwartz referred to?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

I'll have to think on that. Is there a specific reason you think the railway arches on Backchurch lane are the arches Schwartz referred to?

I'm open to alternative suggestions, but my impression is that the railway arches were on the western side of Berner Street (obviously there were some in Pinchin Street too), so that if the choice is between his running east along Fairclough Street or running west along Fairclough Street, west is best.

[Adam Went]

Tom:

Well, if Pipeman was standing at The Nelson, and Schwartz was standing roughly opposite the IWMEC, Pipeman's going to be ahead of him before Fairclough Street, even if it's on the opposite side of the street, right? All he has to do is cross the street and he's right in Schwartz's path.

Isn't it more likely that Pipeman was standing further up Berner Street, Schwartz's attention was taken up by what BS man was doing, then when Schwartz crossed to the other side of the street and heard "Lipski!", he looked round and saw Pipeman coming towards him from behind? Then he scurried off down Fairclough Street? Or something along those lines, anyway!

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Grave Maurice]

Now this is interesting. I had never questioned the direction of Schwartz's flight before. Since he was walking down Berner headed toward his home in Ellen Street, I have always assumed that, after his fright, he continued going south and, with a bit of zigging or zagging, ended up in Pinchin Street. Is there any indication in the reports that he changed direction and ran either east or west? If there is, I can't find it.

[Chris]

Now this is interesting. I had never questioned the direction of Schwartz's flight before. Since he was walking down Berner headed toward his home in Ellen Street, I have always assumed that, after his fright, he continued going south and, with a bit of zigging or zagging, ended up in Pinchin Street. Is there any indication in the reports that he changed direction and ran either east or west? If there is, I can't find it.

There is the report in the Echo of 1 October, which says:
"about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he [the murderer] was seen - or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer - being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club"

As I mentioned, in the previous discussion I understood Tom to say he thought that this was an error, and that Schwartz fled down Berner Street.

[Abby Normal]

Its all a moot point. IMHO Pipeman was invented by IS to explain away his less than brave actions. Upon being seen by someone who looked very jewish BS/JtR shouted out Lipski to scare him away-which it did. later that night, knowing he had been seen by a Jew, JtR did the GSG to throw suspician on said jew/s. Again, JtR directly blamed a jew, after the MK murder.

[The Grave Maurice]

Chris,

Surely The Echo's account is, at best, confused, and, at worst, gibberish. The "murderer" was seen by whom, exactly? And at 12:45? If this report has any substance at all, it must refer to the Diemschutz/Jacobs/Spooner encounter at the corner of Fairclough and Christian streets, near which there are no arches. I can't see the relevance to the Schwartz question.

[Adam Went]

Abby:

But if that were the case, would it not be just as easy for Schwartz to invent a story where he's the reluctant hero and attempts to see off BS man, but had no success? There's no way of telling that this version would be false either, since there were no other witnesses to Schwartz's events. So to me, the fact that he said he more or less ran away from a soon-to-be scene of crime says more for his honesty than for his falsity....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Chris]

Surely The Echo's account is, at best, confused, and, at worst, gibberish. The "murderer" was seen by whom, exactly? And at 12:45? If this report has any substance at all, it must refer to the Diemschutz/Jacobs/Spooner encounter at the corner of Fairclough and Christian streets, near which there are no arches. I can't see the relevance to the Schwartz question.

Obviously the story is somewhat garbled, but it's precisely the timing - 12.45 - that suggests to me that it's a reference to Schwartz's story. 12.45 is the time Schwartz gave. It would be an odd coincidence if someone had mistimed later events to coincide with Schwartz's timing.

[Abby Normal]

Abby:

But if that were the case, would it not be just as easy for Schwartz to invent a story where he's the reluctant hero and attempts to see off BS man, but had no success? There's no way of telling that this version would be false either, since there were no other witnesses to Schwartz's events. So to me, the fact that he said he more or less ran away from a soon-to-be scene of crime says more for his honesty than for his falsity....

Cheers,
Adam.

Hi Adam
Thanks for the reply. perhaps, but since IMHO JtR probably did not have an accomplice, even if Pipeman were real, I think he was there randomly, and was not chasing IS away.

[Adam Went]

Hey Abby,

Yeah I think you're thinking along the right lines there - that, or Pipeman was Jack the Ripper himself, trying to see Schwartz off so that he could "get down to business".

Sorry, personal theory, been gone over before....

Cheers,
Adam.