Graffiti in the East End (e.g. Goulston St.)

[P.M. Boggs]

Janie: “There must have been a lot of people walking around with chalk in their pockets.” Yes: tailors. Chalk and knives.

[spyglass]

Hi Jane,

I always thought that the actual spot where it was written was open to debate amongst ripper experts, is this no longer true ? and I hate to admit this, but I have never really been sure exactly what a door jam is.
I have to admit that when ever I read acounts of this episode I have trouble geting a proper image in my head on what the scene looked like.
I guess im just getting old.

[Monty]

Hi Trevor,

Southside?

Its the westside, just up (north) from the yard. I believe Mrs Mortimers cottage was the one on the left of the photo.

With regards material used to create graffiti, chalk was the most common due to it being fairly cheap.

Oil based paints were extremely rare and far more expensive. This due to the fact they had to be mixed on demand. There were no tins of ready made paint nor any B&Q.

Other than those materials, with the addition of whitewash, there was very little else to use.

In my opinion, chalk was the easiest to use and most accessable.

Monty

[tnb]

North, South, East, West...Tomato, Tomato...thanks for clearing that up Neil, apologies for my, ahem, silly moment - I did indeed mean West or East, I blame unseasonably good Welsh weather and also, perhaps more so, spending all afternoon and evening looking at various maps of South London in preparation for a little jaunt next weekend. My brain is so frazzled now I should probably be grateful I haven't started referring to the whole issue as the Kennington Road Graffiti.

The neatness of the writing has always, to me, seemed to suggest someone taking a little more time than usual, and thus unconcerned about the possibility of being spotted 'in the act' (white-handed, presumably) - rather than someone who knows (as he did the deed) that police are either soon to be or are already flooding into the vicinity because of a nearby murder and who is either writing close by a scrap of bloodied apron or writing with such concealed in his pockets. I could be wrong but I think that may be part of why the scrawled image of the GSG has been so pervasive, as it arguably fits better with the 'message from the killer' idea.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Spyglass,

Well I'm not sure how the debate mutated or how it was finally resolved, or even if other experts have different opionions -- but Stewart Evans and Don Rumblelow, in Scotland Yard Investigates say that it was on the door jamb of the open archway and visible to any passer by. That is why it couldn't be successfully covered, because it could be torn down by any passerby almost at once - which is good enough for me.

Just a thought of my own (and possibly quite ridiculous) - Looking at the photo that was taken back in the 1970s of the doorway, and going by my own recollections of it from the 1960s (and I walked past it a lot) -- the inside was whitewashed and not black. The door jamb was black however.

Obviously it must have been repainted many times since the 1880s, but it would seem common sense that they wouldn't paint the inside of the entrance black, because it would make it far too dark, even in the day. It is far more likely that it was whitewashed inside. Ergo, you'd have a bloody hard job writing on it with chalk.

I seem to remember it was discussed on a thread here a bit back, but might have disappeared when the site crashed.

Just checked the source: It was Warren in a report to the Home Office. Page 182 of The Ultimate Source Book. A49301C/8c dated 6th November.

Hugs

Jane

xxxx

[spyglass]

HI Jane,
Good point about white washing the interior.
I have'nt been idol, I have been going through previous threads on this subject, where people using clever techniques on old photos showing where they believe the writing was, and all have differing interpretations.
one has the writing on the front left hand side, another sideways on, on the left hand side.
I have to be honest , I always assumed it was inside the archway as I always thought the rag was inside the doorway and the writing above.

Many thanks for your input.

[Hunter]

The fascia of the door jamb would be the inside part. It was two bricks long projecting out from the wall ( see photo ) . This part was painted black. This would also be the reason why the graffito was written in several lines as there was only appr. 16 inches to write on. The height of the letters was limited because of the mortar joint between the bricks, which would distort the writing. It should also be remembered that Arnold, I believe, said that anyone entering or leaving could brush against the graffito; thus likely placing it just on the inside of the jamb; not on the street side.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Hunter,

Yes, sorry that was what I meant. Just to clear up any misconceptions I've attached a photo of it with a nice big arrow. I'm not sure which side the archway it was on, (don't think I've ever seen it mentioned anywhere) although if Stewart happens to see this post he might have more information on that for us.

The attached image is just to give the idea of which bit of the door jamb we are both talking about! They have painted a strip down the front of the wall as well in black, which makes it a bit confusing, but it was on the bit inside the door arch.

Unfortunately, this image doesn't show the inside of the entrance very clearly as it's in shadow, but the image in Scotland Yard Investigates, shows that it is very clearly whitewashed inside, and it was certainly white in the 1960s. I used to swing around the pole and and do handstands up the wall with my dress tucked in my knickers, but I was only eleven at the time. Lol.

edit: Just checked out the image of the doorway in the photo archive and it's a much better one. Have a look over there!!!

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Hunter]

Exactly Jane. Good show. Maybe this will clear up debate on this part... if not who wrote it. LOL.

We should be careful about what Warren said as to its readability from the street. Even if the writing was 2 inches tall ( the height of a brick) it would be difficult to read at much distance. I understand Warren's concern but he may have exaggerated a bit to bolster his explaination about erasing it.

[Adam Went]

Hey Monty and all,

I found chalk drawings, obviously made by children, in Puma Court in September 2008.

They were still there, albeit faded, when I attendened the Conference in October 2009.

Likewise during the first London Job where we found some chalk on the back of the Duke Of Wellington Pub in Toynbee Street. Still there just under 12 months later.


Really? Hmm, interesting. Do you guys also have a law over there prohibiting the sale of spray paint (or matches/lighters and kerosene, for that matter) to children under the age of 18? Otherwise, it's interesting that they would choose to use chalk....

I'd suggest that the streets of 1888 would have been somewhat filthier than the streets of the 2000's, and would therefore vanish quicker, but still, surprising in any case that chalk could last that long.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Observer]

Hi

This appeared in Aldgate High Street a couple of years back. I'm sure it's apeared in East End photos and drawings on a previous occasion.



Observer

[Adam Went]

That's an interesting photo.....I reckon both Jack and the police of 1888 would have been totally perplexed if they'd seen "4" and "u" on the walls....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Observer]

Hi Adam

Yes, a modern twist on the original graffiti, as I'm sure some nutcase was alluding to the GSG.

all the best

Observer