JtR's Accent........

[GregBaron]

I know we have few instances of anyone hearing JtR....we have the
famous 'will you?' question, the 'Lipski' shout out and perhaps some
quiet talking heard by Mrs. Long and/or Lawende? Miller's court? The
'No' is presumably Annie Chapman seconds before her unfortunate demise..
....What I'm wondering is, did any of the witness interrogations mention
anything about the accent of what may have been JtR? Is a 'will you' heard
clearly, enough to distinguish an accent? I would think so. Certainly a Tumblety
would sound different than an East Ender or an Irishman or a recently immigrated Polish Jew!
Again, I know few words were ever heard but did anyone ever offer or were they asked this question? Curious...

Question 2 involves one of my favorite phrases 'Shabby Genteel'. My
take on this meaning is of a person dressed fairly well, with gentlemanly or
just short of gentelmanly attire but in a somewhat worn, perhaps slightly
ragged, mildly dirty state. Maybe the dress of someone 'putting on airs'
or trying to appear a bit above their station. My take. Do you all agree with this assessment?



Greg

[Rubyretro]

Ye Greg -I agree with both of your points..

[Carrotty Nell]

Hello Greg

I don't believe Lawende heard any talking. Schwartz did, but just the one word. Could you say 'Lipski' in a Scouze/Geordie accent or whatever? Mrs Long of course said that she believed the man to be a foreigner but based that opinion on his appearance (or her AS attitudes) not his voice.

[Nemo]

"Shabby Genteel" would refer to good clothing that had seen better days IMO

[GregBaron]

Few Words..........

Thanks for the replies you all.....I guess I was basically right about shabby
genteel.......certainly not Astrakhan man right.........!

I suppose not enough words were heard even if they were JtR.....

I guess Mrs. Long's foreigner doesn't narrow things down much even
if only based on appearance..........


Greg

[Adam Went]

Does anybody else think that "Will you?" sounds a bit more posh that what your average Joe, lower class Victorian era man would be saying? Especially to, let's be blunt, a prostitute? That's to go along with the descriptions of his being a bit better dressed.....I'm inclined to think that Jack might have been of the sort that was a bit better off....not necessarily middle class, but not one of the poorest either.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Garry Wroe]

The victimology would suggest otherwise, Adam.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[claire]

Not being one of the poorest, though, Adam, wouldn't necessarily mean his accent would have been any different to those who were...And 'will you' may well have been the tail end of a sentence, and I can think of a million sentences that could end like that which could be spoken by any manner of rogues

[Marc]

The victimology would suggest otherwise, Adam.

Interesting issues around possible JtR 'standard of living' and consequences.
Would have he been able to dissimulate traces from his killings (blood stains on clothes, hands, etc...) if he was living in a lodging house, for example, that is beside being a butcher/slaughterman of some sort ?
He also could have rented a room like MjK did, thus still being considered 'poor', but not 'homeless' strictly speaking.

BTW, 'shabby genteel' could also describe IMHO the attire of a man who had formerly belonged to 'middle class' but had fell on hard times.

[Adam Went]

Hey guys,

The class of victims is not so important though because they were the easiest targets, regardless of what class JTR himself came from.

There's also the description George Hutchinson gave which sounds like a man who was reasonably well off.....depends on whether you choose to believe Hutchinson's statement or not though.

There's a number of reasons why it would be more than reasonable to suggest that JTR himself did not belong to the poorest class.

Cheers,
Adam.

[GregBaron]

Who fits?......

Yeah, just because a guy used a low down middle aged prostitute didn't mean he himself had to come from that class.........these ladies probably refused few opportunities for money regardless of the degradation of the John(punter). With that said, does 'shabby genteel' seem to implicate any of our suspects? I doubt Hutchinson would be described
that way....probably lower on the chain.....I suppose Tumblety might dress 'down' to shabby but I just don't see it...........it seems Bury or H.H. Holmes might fit this description.......not sure about Cohen.......? Did poor Jews dress differently? I definitely don't see Kominski as 'shabby g....', more on the grubby side...............what about Druitt?, Chapman etc...? As always pure speculation but probably worth contemplating...


Greg

[Adam Went]

Greg:

Well, Chapman apparently liked dressing up like a sailor, and enjoyed his sailing, which is interesting given some of the other witness descriptions as well. And he had his own place at 126 Cable Street, so obviously not amongst the very worse off either....

Maybe it shouldn't be used so much as a "who did it then?" but as a "who didn't do it then?".....the good old process of elimination.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[The Grave Maurice]

Personally, I've pretty much discounted Hutchinson's statement. And surely the victims would have been leary of a toff. The only explanation of why, at least the later victims, accepted him so willingly is that he looked as though he belonged in the East End---just a regular punter.

[Adam Went]

GM:

What? Seriously? Think of it like this....a prostitute with no money for a lodging house or a drink gets approached by somebody who looks like a bit of a toff. Toff means he's got money. He's got money means he might pay well, and certainly better than your average bloke on the streets....I'd actually say they would have welcomed the opportunity, rather than been wary and steered clear of him.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

An interesting discussion, and I don't want to throw a spanner in the works, but we don't actually know that anyone ever saw or heard the killer or killers.

True, the odds are probably in favour of it being those suspects that were spotted very close to the time of the murder with the victims, but we can't really say for certain that any of them were Jack the Ripper or variations on the theme. The victims might well have met their killer after they left those suspects, even though it was a tight time frame.

Having said that, it could have been one of them, so ignore me.


Hugs

Jane

xxxx