Horse & Buggy?

[GregBaron]

This is probably an ignorant query and also probably well discussed before
but another thread(with a royalist suspect) brought it again to the surface of
my small brain.

What do you guys think the likelihood that JTR escaped via transom? Following from that, how many such vehicles were clomping about at 2 or 3 in the morning in Whitechapel 1888? Also, were police officers able to flag down and/or pursue such vehicles if in fact foul play was suspected? I guess a horse & buggy would also require conspiracy......!

Any enlightenment would be appreciated. Thanks.

Greg

[Gman992]

First of all, there are no stupid questions. There are, however, a lot of problems with Jack using a horse and carriage.

First of all, the horse and carriage might make a lot of noise, mostly from the wheels on the cobblestones.

Secondly, working with animals is never easy...what if the horse starts mucking up, making noise? This is supposed to take place with minimal noise as possible.

Thirdly, there are some areas in the East End--mostly alley and backstreets that a horse and carriage couldn't fit into.

Fourthly, a horse and carriage would entale another person, who might talk or develop a conscience. The more people involved, the more likely a leak or blackmail--"give me what I want or I'll tell people what you're doing on the backstreets with those dead women."

Fifth, what about clean-up...it's like the scene from Pulp Fiction where they have to clean all of the blood and brain matter off of the backseat...There would be blood galore inside that carriage, and someone has to clean it or get suspicious. "Hey, guv, where in the world did all of this blood come from? You're not out there picking up prostitutes and cutting them.....opps never mind. Do you want me to check the hood and oil?" This of course entitles more people to clean up--I'm pretty sure royalty ever cleaned up their messes--hence risking more people, asking more questions.

Greg

[The Grave Maurice]

What do you guys think the likelihood that JTR escaped via transom?

I have visions of JtR climbing over a door.

[GregBaron]

Points well taken....

Good points Greg.....of course this rather absurd idea was perpetuated by the
fantastical movie 'From Hell'.........I'm still wondering about the number of such vehicles milling about at night and I'm also assuming only the wealthy could proffer such.........

I'm sure there are those who believe in a conspiracy due to the somewhat ghostlike disappearances of JTR............

Greg

[curious]

Good points Greg.....of course this rather absurd idea was perpetuated by the
fantastical movie 'From Hell'.........I'm still wondering about the number of such vehicles milling about at night and I'm also assuming only the wealthy could proffer such.........

I'm sure there are those who believe in a conspiracy due to the somewhat ghostlike disappearances of JTR............

Greg

Greg,
A horse and carriage would require more wealth than most in Whitechapel possessed.

William Bury did have a pony and cart. I've wondered about where he stabled his animal.

curious

[Phil Carter]

Curious,

Wasn't there a horse and cart being tendered in Dorset St across from No.13? And a cart at the sight of one of the Torso murders?

best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

I wondered about horses and carts decades ago when I first got interested in the case, and then thought some more in 1888 after the Michael caine min-series.

The noise that iron rimmed wheels, or even hard rubber tires if used, would make on cobbled streets would have been enormous. Even a hand cart (for instance the hearse they took Nichols' body away in) would "shake rattle and roll".

I'd like to know whether there was much wheeled traffic in Buck's Row at night/early morning. I think the noise in the relatively still hours would have woken those in (say) Essex Wharf or New Cottage.

Second, while Warren, for instance, might have reached Goulston St by hansom cab, hackney carriage or growler, I doubt that many others living in the area would have done so, or that they would have been a usual sight.

The thought of a town coach, complete with heraldic device on the door panels and the swagged coachman's box, meandering through the East End by night (as in the Tv series) always makes me fall about laughing.

Someone else has observed on Casebook that several of the murder sites would have been too restricted for a coach, cab or carriage to enter easily.

But all that said, I would like to know much more about nighttime traffic off the main thoroughfares (such as Whitechapel Road - where carriages and cabs might have passed), the levels of noise, and expectations about the types of traffic to be seen. I can try to work things out logically and using common sense, but that is not evidence, and one could be hopelessly wrong.

Phil

[Robert]

Hi Phil

I don't know how much horse-drawn traffic there would have been in the wee hours. Some, I guess - the carmen Cross and Paul were on their way to work, apparently being required to get there by 4 AM. On the other hand, Smith says his hansom rolled like a seventy-four in a gale, which suggests a somewhat fast pace and therefore little traffic.

[Phil H]

I agree, although I think the hansom had burly police constables hanging off the sides, as well as overweight interior occupants - it may be that, rather than speed, that the ACC was referring to!!

Phil

[Ginger]

Horse-drawn cabs operated at all hours of the day or night. They were expensive, though - 6d a mile for the cheapest, and up to 1s for the most costly, per "The Horse World of London" (W.J. Gordon, Religious Tract Society, London, 1893). I'd expect a cab hailed at at 4am to be more pricey than not, as the cabman has little competition at that hour. Also there's the problem of obtaining a cab. This was before the days of radio dispatch, so if you wanted a cab, you either had to find an empty one or make advance arrangements to be picked up. They were unlikely to be found in the back streets, especially at night, unless returning to a main street after dropping off a fare.

So far as the hansom 'rolling like a 74', those things were notoriously unstable, even without several large men hanging off the sides.

-Ginger

[Errata]

Not a horse on the planet that will stick around a bleeding human. Or a human covered in blood. Horses can and have killed themselves trying to get away from blood or corpses. That's why dead carts were typically human powered, and operated late at night. The less traffic, less of a chance of being trampled because of your cargo.

War horses were specifically trained to tolerate it, and the training was intense and not always successful. It's not something Joe Shmo could accomplish, because the desensitization process is.. extreme. Nor were retired war horses allowed out into the public, because they had so many specialized commands they weren't deemed safe for life on the outside. They were either put into a breeding program, slaughtered, or occasionally lived out their days in the paddock of a horse master. But they never made it on to the streets of London with a cab strapped to their butt.

[niko]

sense of smell.

Hi Errata, does this imply that horses also shy from animal blood ? If so the cart's and carriages which circulated near the slaughter-houses up Aldgate, would have difficulties with their horses, as they would smell the blood or were the horses who frequented this area acustomed to the smell of blood !!

I personally know that horses have a great sense of smell, a male horse can smell a mer in heat from a great distance away. I once visited a slaughter-house and the dominant smell was that of blood, all the best, agur.

niko

[Errata]

Hi Errata, does this imply that horses also shy from animal blood ? If so the cart's and carriages which circulated near the slaughter-houses up Aldgate, would have difficulties with their horses, as they would smell the blood or were the horses who frequented this area acustomed to the smell of blood !!

I personally know that horses have a great sense of smell, a male horse can smell a mer in heat from a great distance away. I once visited a slaughter-house and the dominant smell was that of blood, all the best, agur.

niko

They actually did have a hell of a time getting horses around slaughterhouses. Which is why predominantly slaughter houses and butchers functioned out of the same building. Live animals went in, and individual portions went out. Larger items like sides of beef were transported by handcarts.

Horses have an amazing sense of smell, but they are also pretty good judges of what is a threat. A day old dead anything is not a threat. In their minds, clearly whatever killed it has moved on. So they get nervous, but they don't freak out. Fresh blood, or fresh bodies are a problem. That means the predator is still nearby, and since horses are prey animals, their instincts tell them to run like hell.

A good example is the horse that discovered Stride. It was strapped to a cart, so it couldn't wheel and run. So it froze. Refused to get closer lest it attract the predators attention. Likely the rain and the cold meant that the smell of blood was not as powerful as it otherwise would have been, or its very likely the horse would have broken it's own neck trying to get rid of the cart. Living in a city would numb a horses nose to an extent. Enough to cause constant anxiety as opposed to constant terror. But liters of fresh blood is just right out, and the only way to prevent a horse from running from that is to secure it to the point that it will kill itself trying to escape. Neither is a good option if you didn't want to walk home after a murder.

[Bridewell]

William Bury did have a pony and cart. I've wondered about where he stabled his animal.

I read somewhere that a lot of carts etc were stored in George Yard. I can't recall where I read it though, sorry.

Regards, Bridewell

[Wickerman]

I read somewhere that a lot of carts etc were stored in George Yard. I can't recall where I read it though, sorry.

Regards, Bridewell

George Yard on Cable St. was where Diemschitz kept his pony, don't know about carts though.

Regards, Jon S.