East end and LVP cultural specifics

[protohistorian]

I am creating this thread in the hopes that my peers will post things they have learned or read (with citations) about features of this case that has surprised them or helped their understanding of the case. Dave

[protohistorian]

Scotland Yard Investigates

So here is one from the above Titled book by Stewart P. Evans and Donald Rumbelow. On page 37 there is a discussion of people per acre. In 1883 the density for London outside of Spitalfields is given as 50 ppl/acre, Whitechapel 176 ppl/acre, and the Bell Lane district of Spitalfields, 600 ppl/acre. Dave

[protohistorian]

As a conversion exercise 43,560 ft / 6oo people equals 72.6 ft per person. That is roughly half the area of Mary Kelly's flat. Dave

[Edward]

Mary Kelly's room sq. ft.

I thought that Mary Kelly's room was 10 ft. X 10 ft., which would make it 100 sq. ft. Am I off?

Best Regards,
Ed

[protohistorian]

I thought 12 x12. I will check the wiki on casebook. Dave

[protohistorian]

wiki on millers court

12 x 12. 144 square feet. Dave

[Edward]

12 X 12 ft.

My mistake. Thanks!

Edward

[protohistorian]

My mistake. Thanks!

Edward

No worries. At least you have the stones to see things that may be your mistake. Dave

[protohistorian]

does anyone know the victorian meaning for "mineral water manufaturer"? Dave

[Phil H]

So far as Victorian "culture" is concerned - if by that we mean "lifestyle" etc; I am frequently surprised by the assumption that it would have been normal for MJK to be naked in bed - or almost so.

(While the famous crime-scene picture may appear to show the remnants of a chemise, the doctors who saw the body in situ all described her as naked, so the picture may not actually show what it appears to do.)

I do not believe that it was normal for Victorians of any class to strip naked for sex, or to sleep, indeed the values of the day would in my view have been against that. For the upper classes, costume of the period was too complex and difficult to remove or replace - lacing, hooking or buttoning up the back in the case of ladies. Without a maid it would - at least for women of quality -have been difficult to disrobe unaided.

Secondly, houses were not well-heated - MJK's room did not have much (if any) fuel and the weather was cold. The assumption has always been that the killer burned clothing - something of which I am suspicious as I do not believe it would create much heat.

It was for that reason - cold rooms - that almost everyone wore nightclothes or remained in some of their day wear - underclothing, shirt, nightshirt for men and a chemise of petticoat for women. Frankly, I doubt that MJK possessed specific night attire.

Even husbands and wives would rarely have seen each other naked, and would not have expected to do so. One elderly lady told me in the early 1990s (and her married life would have been say 1940s/50s-1980s) that she had never seen her husband naked - the context being a discussion of modern TV programmes and nudity which embarrassed her! Such attitudes would have been even more ingrained in the 1880s/LPV.

So, I think there is a very strong likelihood that MJKs murderer stripped her after strangling her and before mutilating her body. Whether he was naked I have no idea but given that the door was insecure and the window was broken, I doubt it.

In case anyone thinks that a prostitute's attitudes might have been different, I take it that no one is of the view that, Nichols, Eddowes or Chapman proposed to strip for sex? It was simply a matter of lifting their skirts - like Kelly they would not have worn knickers - even upper class women's knickers had separate legs at that period.

I don't see kelly as being any different. Sharing the room, she and barnett would have slept at least partially clothed, and even when using the tin bath (seen under the bed) would probably not have stripped completely. Intimacy was different then - as were expactations.

I'd be interested in the views of others, on this "cultural" point, which might affect how the murder in Miller's Ct is perceived.

Phil

[John Savage]

Hi Dave,

Mineral water - soft drinks such as Coca Cola, 7up, CanadaDry, or the tonic water you put in your gin.

Rgds
John

[Marc]

Secondly, houses were not well-heated - It was for that reason - cold rooms - that almost everyone wore nightclothes or remained in some of their day wear - underclothing, shirt, nightshirt for men and a chemise of petticoat for women.

Hi Phil, very interesting points IMHO.
To concur with your comments, my late Grand-Mother, born in 1911, would always tell me with a chuckle that her father (born ca. 1885), a pastry cook, wore his day work shirt in bed, with tie unfastened, and I'd add, probably a night cap too during cold months.
Only on Saturday and Sunday, he would don his "Sunday best", including a freshly laundered shirt after having taken a hot bath in the family tin
bathtub.

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,

Mineral water - soft drinks such as Coca Cola, 7up, CanadaDry, or the tonic water you put in your gin.

Rgds
John

Thank You John! I have come across several thus far, and it was beginning to bug me that I did not know. The locations were such that my curiosity was inflamed. Dave