Ripper-tour with Henry Moore

[DVV]

Phil,

I admit the confusion is shocking.
But can't it be Bois-Glavy's confusion, or a bit of sensationalism on his behalf ?
Remember the article has been written 18 months after the Ripper-tour with Moore...
Anyway, I'll wait and see...

For the time being, if I had to baulk at something here, it would be at the suggestion that the Ripper victims were not killed where they have been found. This is definitely shocking.

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Jason,
With the utmost respect,
It isn't the ONLY example of it happening is it?

And it doesn't explain why the man SUPPOSEDLY in charge of the Whitechapel murders case CAN'T remember the difference between MJK's disgusting, all body mutilations, and a Torso with a missing head? And then on top of his "entrails hanging over the chair" stuff in 1889?

That went to an American newspaper. Can't lose that in translation.

best wishes

Phil

[jason_c]

So we have disinformation about information already in the public domain e.g. Kelly's head was not found in the Thames.

[Phil Carter]

Hello David,

Here we have an important load of quotes from one of if not THE man in charge of the case, and he can't remember the difference between Kelly's death and unforgettable mutilation, and a headless Torso?

Please... lost in translation?

I'm sorry.. I have seen excuse after excuse brought up on these boards for policemen AFTER the fact all spreading complete bull... and this is yet another example of it.

When oh when will somebody see that this is DELIBERATE!

All these people can't ALL be going down different alleyways in an attempt to "answer" the murders. That's ok with one or two, but the policeman in charge in this article can't even remember the CASE!

A headless Kelly? , her head fished from the Thames, 9th November. Jane Kelly.

Not lost in translation. It's another piece of disinformation to create CONFUSION to stop anyone getting near the real scenario. It was done deliberately, and went on and on and on.

Even today... more reasons for what is becoming very very obvious to more and more people.

And it will carry on and on.

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

Phil,

what is your other point ?
I personally just can imagine some confusion between different cases...as usual in press reports.
Imo, there are much more interesting points in the article: a "new" Jewish-theory, Jack-the-Dosser...

Amitiés,
David

edit : merci à Chris Scott. Magnifique traduction. Vous devez parler supérieurement le français, pour paraphraser le texte...!

[jason_c]

Lost in translation perhaps?

Not only the translation on this thread but the original 1888 translation as well.

[Phil Carter]

Hello David, Gary,

The reference to Brighton you point out, is correct.. but my other point is here..

"......When this visit was over, Mr. Swanson, whose attention was required by other matters, entrusted us to the care of Mr. Henry Moore, CID Inspector, and we set off on our way.
When we were underway Mr. Moore told us that he had been at Brighton enjoying the sea bathing when he was suddenly recalled to proceed with the inquiry of this new crime, for in the previous year, he had succeeded in establishing the identity of a woman murdered in the same circumstances on 9 November 1888.
Jane Kelly had been cut into a number of pieces by her killer who had pleased himself by scattering them in various places. The Thames had received her head, and thanks to his initiative and his patience, Mr. Moore had succeeded in establishing the identity of the victim.
This had not led to the killer being discovered, but at least a little satisfaction was had by this discovery.

with best wishes, as always

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Phil.

Yes, there was a substantial facility on Wentworth Street used to incinerate refuse and said to deposit ash continually for miles around.

When we were underway Mr. Moore told us that he had been at Brighton enjoying the sea bathing when he was suddenly recalled to proceed with the inquiry of this new crime, for in the previous year, he had succeeded in establishing the identity of a woman murdered in the same circumstances on 9 November 1888.

I rather suspect that 'this new crime' is the operative term here. In other words, Moore was recalled from Brighton as a consequence of the torso discovery.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

Hi Phil and Stephen,

Garry is right, the text says he was in Brighton at the time of the Pinchin Street case, and was recalled because he was supposed to have done great work in 1888 in MJK's case.

Amitiés,
David

[Stephen Thomas]

You can all call me suspicious of all this, (dont use the word conspiracy, I don't)... but some sort of smokescreen was started during the Whitechapel murders, and was carried on by Lord knows how many policemen AFTER the whole thing stopped. NO ONE agreed. All telling different tales. All more and more at odds with the "facts".

My thoughts entirely, Phil. But don't expect too many to agree.

Most, it seems, follow the 'JTR was never caught' line.

[Phil Carter]

Garry,

Thank you for the Wentworth St thing...didn't know there was a furnace there?.
Re Moore...
The article refers to Jane Kelly, and the 9th of November. Thats MJK for sure.
And I ask again, how is it possible that Hemry Moore, "in charge" of the Whitechapel murder case, can possibly mistake MJK's murder for a Torso killing?

There is so much wrong here.

best wishes

Phil

[Garry Wroe]

Does anyone know where the "huge chimney in which was burned all the rubbish of the district was?

Could be Wentworth Street, Phil.

Hang on...Henry Moore in Brighton on MJK's murder?

I thinks he's referring to the torso murder, Phil, rather than the Kelly affair.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[Stephen Thomas]

Magnificent stuff, Mr Scott. Many thanks!

[Phil Carter]

Chris, David,

Many thanks for the complete translation and finding of this item.


Does anyone know where the "huge chimney in which was burned all the rubbish of the district was?

However, my main point is this...I start to wonder exactly what the point of telling press people things actually is when I see the comment below....

When we were underway Mr. Moore told us that he had been at Brighton enjoying the sea bathing when he was suddenly recalled to proceed with the inquiry of this new crime, for in the previous year, he had succeeded in establishing the identity of a woman murdered in the same circumstances on 9 November 1888.
Jane Kelly had been cut into a number of pieces by her killer who had pleased himself by scattering them in various places. The Thames had received her head, and thanks to his initiative and his patience, Mr. Moore had succeeded in establishing the identity of the victim.
This had not led to the killer being discovered, but at least a little satisfaction was had by this discovery.

Hang on...Henry Moore in Brighton on MJK's murder?
Yet another top policeman not around when a murder occurs?
Is there any limit of the amount of coincidences in this case?
Her head in the Thames?
You mean to tell me that the most gruesome murder Whitechapel had ever witnessed, only 3 years later is being confused with another one? There is no way that this high ranking policeman would EVER forget the mutilations and details of MJK's demise. Dew, and the Pall Mall gazette said Moore was "in charge" of the Whitechapel murders...
He is also responsible for the interview with R Harding Davis (1889) of the Philidelphia Press, talking in THAT interview of "....different parts of the body on nails and hung over the back of chairs"

Hang on, I can understand the over doing of the interview from 1889 to colour the scene (once), but also the "head missing" bit in another interview...that smells to me.
It spells of more disinformation. I am sorry, but this high ranking policeman could NOT have had THAT bad a memory. And that long AFTER the crime, to tell such a whopping fib serves no purpose.

You can all call me suspicious of all this, (dont use the word conspiracy, I don't)... but some sort of smokescreen was started during the Whitechapel murders, and was carried on by Lord knows how many policemen AFTER the whole thing stopped. NO ONE agreed. All telling different tales. All more and more at odds with the "facts".

MJK's head in the Thames? That's rich.

best wishes

Phil

[Chris Scott]

On the 10th September, 1889, the mutilated body of a woman was found beneath one of the arches on the railway line which crosses the Whitechapel district.
This was the 9th in a series which has made famous throughout the whole world the nickname given to the mysterious killer, Jack the Ripper.
Finding myself in London, I talked with my colleague and friend, Mr. T. Johnson, the distinguished Figaro correspondent, of this new crime, of the conditions in which it had been committed - still the same conditions - and I was amazed at the ineptitude of the English police in their efforts to find the perpetrator.
"You cannot doubt the difficulties which the detectives encounter to achieve some result," Johnson told me, "and, if you wish, we will go this very day to see Mr. Williamson, the general superintendent of the detective force, we will consult with him - he speaks French very well - and we will ask him to arrange for us to visit the scene of the crime with an inspector."
I accepted immediately, and the following day, at 4 0'clock, a policeman at Scotland Yard - the headquarters of the London police - showed us into the office of the general superintendent.
Mr. Williamson, the holder of this office, is a man who must be all of sixty years of age. Two years ago he reached 37 years of service in the London police. This means that he has a deep understanding of the underworld of this city of more than 5 million inhabitants.
After the usual civilities we explained the purpose of our visit. He granted us with a very good grace the permission we sought and summoned one of his adjutants, Mr. Swanson, a chief inspector, to whom he introduced us in the customary English manner.
Mr. Swanson, a true gentleman, arranged a meeting for us two days later at 4 o'clock, at Leman Street police station in the heart of Whitechapel.
We arrived promptly for the meeting and a police officer first took us on a visit round the police station. It occupies a whole building and has a large courtyard at the back from which a rear door leads onto the adjoining street.
Variously appointed cells are tailored for the different sort of inhabitants who will occupy them. Those for the insane resemble the small cells in the asylums; those meant for thieves give them a foretaste of what awaits them at Newgate or some other London prison, and finally those meant for the drunkards, very numerous in this district, have a very special fitting. The benches are clearly visible and the channelled floor allows the copious pouring out of buckets of water meant to dispel anything which might disturb those too fond of gin or whisky.
From Saturday evening until Monday morning these cells are packed and a very special kind of care is required to look after these drunkards who are fed on black coffee and buttered bread.
When this visit was over, Mr. Swanson, whose attention was required by other matters, entrusted us to the care of Mr. Henry Moore, CID Inspector, and we set off on our way.
When we were underway Mr. Moore told us that he had been at Brighton enjoying the sea bathing when he was suddenly recalled to proceed with the inquiry of this new crime, for in the previous year, he had succeeded in establishing the identity of a woman murdered in the same circumstances on 9 November 1888.
Jane Kelly had been cut into a number of pieces by her killer who had pleased himself by scattering them in various places. The Thames had received her head, and thanks to his initiative and his patience, Mr. Moore had succeeded in establishing the identity of the victim.
This had not led to the killer being discovered, but at least a little satisfaction was had by this discovery.
"As to today's crime," Mr. Moore told us as we arrived under the arch where the body had been found, "we have nothing to guide us. There you can see the place where the human torso had been placed, completely naked, placed on its side, its arms folded across the chest. This is one of the arches of a railway aqueduct to which access is completely unhindered. It's evident that the killer threw his burden there, as if throwing down a bundle of manure. But how is it that it attracted no one's attention? How did he carry the body? Under the two neighbouring arches three men were sleeping. They state that they saw and heard nothing. After all, this is possible. In this place, indifference is the rule for those who have good reason to take no notice of the actions of their neighbours."
"I will show you, "Mr. Moore continued, "the various places where the other bodies were found, and you can judge for yourselves the ease with which killers would be able to evade our investigations."
We crossed a maze of alleyways, we went into horrible cul de sacs. Here we found "Blood Alley," so called as this is the place where miscreants are accustomed to fight. In the adjoining court, a sort of self contained city, 2,000 persons sleep each night, the dregs of this frightful population.
About twenty of them were there and looked at us with fierce eyes.
"Not one of these persons," Mr. Moore told us, "would have any scruples about stabbing you for a penny (two sous)." That made us turn cold.
This little shop, which seemed to sell lard and eggs, is the den of a daily money lender; he makes 2,000 francs a week by lending to the street pedlars a few shillings to buy pears, apples, boxes of matches which they will later resell about the streets.
We went into a small tavern. Mr. Moore was well known there. The three or four drinkers who were seated there on the wooden benches looked at him with suspicion mixed with fear, and their noses poked into their beer mugs. After a glass of gin, Mr. Moore exchanged a few words in a low voice with the inn-keeper and we left.
"That," Mr. Moore told us, "is a thieves' den. That's where they gather every evening and have a sort of criminal market."
We were not sorry to be out in the open.
We arrived at Mitre Square.
A fairly large square, in the middle of which is a hole surrounded by a small wall tall enough to lean on. This is the place, open to the sky, where the waste of all the properties in the square is thrown. Two children were at the bottom of the hole, playing with things best not named. Washing was drying on lines strung across the square.
On the 30 September 1888, the body of the woman Eddowes was found in Mitre Square; the body was mutilated and, as usual, no one had heard anything.
On that same evening, 30 September, on the corner of Berner Street, ten minutes from Mitre Square, was found another body, that of Elizabeth Stride. The throat was cut, but Jack the Ripper had, no doubt, insufficient time to perform his usual mutilations.
We than crossed the Jewish quarter. The posters are in Hebrew, Hebrew is spoken there, and there is a newspaper in that language. On the doorsteps grubby children grizzled, women of a definite type sorted out their scraps. A frightful stench rose up from these rags, bones of animals and fish - a stench compounded by the stink of the thick smoke belching out from a huge chimney in which was burned all the rubbish of the district.
Mr. Moore assured us that all these people were honest. However, he pointed out to us that not one of the murdered women was Jewish, which initially led to the supposition that the killer was of that (Jewish) religion and was carrying out some kind of vengeance. There are in this district 10-12,000 tailors, nearly all German or Polish. They were then on strike and held meetings in the streets where no vehicles passed.
Proceeding on our way, we came to Brick Lane and visited a model dwelling, built specially for workers.
On the 7 August 1888, there was found on the first floor landing, next door to the toilets, the body of Martha Turner, stabbed with 39 wounds. Martha Turner did not live in the building and the killer remained unknown. The staircase of these buildings is external and so access is easy; but dragging a body there could be challenging.
The most extraordinary feature of these murders, according to Mr. Moore, is that the perpetrator leaves not the slightest trace of his presence and no explanation is forthcoming as to how he carries his grim burdens.
"We cannot," Mr. Moore told us, "get more than the slightest of information from the managers of these common lodging houses in front of which you are now standing; their residents are to them just numbers that they don't even want to know."
Some of these lodging houses accommodate up to 500 person per night, paying 8 pence (80 centimes) in advance. The first couple to arrive find themselves a quiet haven for the night. Anyway, it is in these lodging houses that Mr. Moore expects to find the elusive criminal.
"Nothing new?" he asks the managers who greet him.
"Nothing new," they reply and we leave.
"100 police constables went," he tells us, "for three months, searching night and day - especially at night - in the Whitechapel district and, to quote an English expression, we left no stone unturned. But, we must not forget, we are looking for a needle in a haystack."
At this point we left Mr. Moore, who suggested that we return in the evening. We thanked him for his offer but declined. We were shattered; we had walked for three hours and we had not covered three kilometres as the crow files.
When, one hour later, our cab stopped in Regent Street in front of the Cafe Royal, it seemed to Johnson and me that we were waking from a dreadful nightmare.