Firearms in East End

[JTRSickert]

Hello,

I had a question: since the East End was a very violent area, are there any reports of attacks or murders that were carried out using pistols or other types of guns. I know the Fenians were notorious during this time for using bombs for the Irish cause, but are there any instances of guns being used in any crimes? I know it is difficult to acquire a gun in UK today but was that always the case?

[Steve S]

No real problems with gun accqusition 'til after WWI...Then it was a mixture of paranoias about Bolsheviks and discharged soldiers....Having said that,the only cases that stick in the mind are the Tottenham/Houndsditch/Sidney St. ones,which aren't exactly typical......Unlike today,because guns were legal,there wasn't a lot of profit to be made in supplying them to criminals.......

[Harry the Hawker]

shooters

I read a great collection of reminiscences by a man who came from the Old Nichol rookeries about his criminal career around 1900, in which he spoke in detail about the preferred kinds of revolvers carried by policemen and villains at the time, and how he would stick up 'spielers' (Jewish gambling clubs) using a revolver. I believe he spoke of such a heist on Berner Street(!) - of course, I can't find the link any more. I've just tried Googling 'Old Nichol' and 'revolver' but it doesn't come up... sorry to tantalise you with this without being able to give you the business. If you have more time, you may find it with some Googly detective-work (I'll have a go again too later when I have more time).
Regards,
'Arry

p.s. I've just remembered how I found it the first time round - by Googling a particular type of revolver. I remember I did this after having read the A6 murders thread, so try 'Webley' or 'Enfield'...

[Phil Carter]

'Ello 'Arry,

There were many raids by the police in the IWMC in Berner St after 1888...
The raids on that place may tell you something... Im not sure, there are others that know more about this than I do.

best wishes

Phil

[Steve S]

NOW I'm trying to remember that crook's name...Arthur...something?...I know the one you mean.........For what it's worth..Most common types in 1888 would be Webley Bulldog or R.I.C..The 'military' webleys were a bit later...The only Enfield revolver prior to the 1920's was the 1882 model...Short-lived in British service,it equipped the 'Mounties' for years.

[Sam Flynn]

NOW I'm trying to remember that crook's name...Arthur...something?

Arthur Harding.

We should remember that the better part of 15 years separated the Whitechapel of the Ripper's day and those of Harding's heyday, and a much wider gulf between 1888 and when Harding actually came to tell his story.

[Harry the Hawker]

NOW I'm trying to remember that crook's name...Arthur...something?...I know the one you mean.........For what it's worth..Most common types in 1888 would be Webley Bulldog or R.I.C..The 'military' webleys were a bit later...The only Enfield revolver prior to the 1920's was the 1882 model...Short-lived in British service,it equipped the 'Mounties' for years.

Ah, yes, it was indeed the Webley RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) revolver that led me to the story of Arthur Harding.

Here's the article, for what it's worth:

http://www.bishopsgate.org.uk/content.asp?CategoryID=1201

Regards, Harry

[perrymason]

Heres some information on the issue of handguns in the Victorian Era,.....

"The right to bear arms was guaranteed in the 1689 Bill of Rights, in which the new King William of Orange enshrined a series of rights for his subjects - Catholics were famously excluded. This was enshrined in common law during the early years of the US, and later informed the second amendment of the US constitution, which explains why the right to bear arms remains so strong a factor in America.

Meanwhile back in Britain - where hostile natives and rogue bears - were less of an issue, few people took up the right to carry arms. But there remained no legal restrictions on gun ownership throughout the Victorian era.

In 1870 a licence was introduced for anyone who wanted to carry a gun outside their home. But there were no restrictions on keeping a firearm indoors."

Whether they could be widely afforded in the "Abyss" is likely another story.

Best regards

[Natalie Severn]

'Ello 'Arry,

There were many raids by the police in the IWMC in Berner St after 1888...
The raids on that place may tell you something... Im not sure, there are others that know more about this than I do.

best wishes

Phil

Thats true Phil.The main problem for the government was that the huge demonstration of 1887 in Trafalgar Square that turned so bloody when the government sent the army in,gave the authorities a terrible fright---to put it politely.They had a lot to deal with---disaffected Irish Nationalists plotting bomb outrages real and imagined,a huge impoverished East End where unemployment was rife and the Match girls of Bow commanding huge support for better health and safety and generally improved work conditions and pay.The Match Girls had been successful in 1888 and meanwhile large demonstrations were beginning to take place in Whitechapel often setting off from the Berner street club where a lot of agitation and unrest had come about due to the ghastly working conditions in the sweat shops where many Jewish immigrants worked for a pittance for the anglo Jewish seat shop owners. These Anglo Jewish sweat shop owners had become extablished over time and were able to successfully appeal to the government for help to quash the turbulence that was threatening their own financial interests.They were also able to appeal to the orthodox Jewish leaders at the Great Synagogue which many of them attended in Mitre Square and where these demonstrations from Berner Street often wound up in angry mood---and remember most of the Jewish members of the Berner Street club were actually combatively secular.
So the authorities were behind the police raids on Berner Street.It suited them to try to disrupt the unrest.
It all came to a head in the famous Dock Strike of 1889 when 200,000 Dockers,Gas workers,Craft workers and members of the Berner Street club marched together through Commercial Street and onto the City marking the start of Socialism and the organisation of the Unskilled into Trade Unionism.
Nobody knew quite where all this would lead because in Paris after the French Revolution there had been several uprisings in 1848 and 1870 which had caused immense concern in the British Establishment in case such unrest spread to the UK.

[Phil Carter]

Norma,

Thank you. There ..you see? Others know far more than I do about this... hehehe. I would be intruiged to see any newspaper articles about the first of these raids. I THINK there was a raid in November 1888. I know that there was one where Diemshitz, Isaacs and another man were found guilty of (amongst other things) resisting arrest and sentenced in April 1889.

There is an excellent article about the above mentioned Matchgirls strike here

http://www.mernick.org.uk/thhol/matchgirls.html

best wishes

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Phil,
I will read the article tonight---Lynda La Plante"s , The Red Dhalia---[a take on the Black Dahlia ]is about to start on Sky---2nd episode of three.Its been good so far....
Cheers for that


Norma

[Harry the Hawker]

Excellent post Nathalie, thank you! Would I be right in thinking the Berner St club also played a role in the formation of the First International?

Regards,
H.

[Natalie Severn]

Excellent post Nathalie, thank you! Would I be right in thinking the Berner St club also played a role in the formation of the First International?

Regards,
H.

Many Thanks Harry. I dont know the answer to your question about the 1st International Harry, but I think its very unlikely.It moved shortly after 1888 .Part of it took a back room for meetings in Hanbury Street at the Sugar Loaf Pub and the other lot went off spatting with each other......!
Best

Norma