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  • #76
    Originally posted by Phil Carter
    You, LC and myself, amongst others, have been "Fenianising" for ages...
    No kidding. Lynn or Mike post and it's like a bomb dropped.

    Yours truly,

    Tom Wescott

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
      No kidding. Lynn or Mike post and it's like a bomb dropped.

      Yours truly,

      Tom Wescott
      Hello Tom,

      It doesnt matter WHO did what, before or after... the point is that NOW we have a certain connection to a murder site. Whoever found it.. we have made significant progress.All of us.. you, Archaic, Michael LC, me... all of us. smiling happily...well done!

      best wishes

      Phil
      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


      Justice for the 96 = achieved
      Accountability? ....

      Comment


      • #78
        What connection is that, Phil?

        Yours truly,

        Tom Wescott

        Comment


        • #79
          new direction

          Hello Phil. Although it is too soon to uncork the bubbly, yet this theory does tie many viable threads together: Fenians; anarchists; socialists; and (so I was given to understand in a private message) Monty Druitt, who wished to be a social reformer--to say nothing of a possible link to Tom's man.

          This requires much deliberation but it may represent a new direction. Very well. The old was getting a bit boring.

          The best.
          LC

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
            What connection is that, Phil?

            Yours truly,

            Tom Wescott
            Tom,

            I requote you..

            Quote Tom Westcott... Naturally, Fenians and anarchists would run across each other and even work together. But to what extent? Certainly, they both dealt in bombs and such. The Berner Street club is no exception. This is one line I plan to research more in the future.
            happy now?..you said it!

            best wishes

            Phil
            Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


            Justice for the 96 = achieved
            Accountability? ....

            Comment


            • #81
              What connection is all this to the murders? I have a lot of stuff on the anarchists of London. There's a number of connections from the club to murder sites. This is nothing new. Goulston Street was very significant in the history of immigrant Jews. It was also where the Berner Street club would start out on some of their marches. Like one that ended in Mitre Square because it's right next to the big Synagogue. Is there a connection to the murders? Possibly. I could name a few suspicious characters. But I've never found anything solid.

              As for the Fenians, I don't know much about them, except they were a bunch of Irishmen. Silly guinneas.

              Yours truly,

              Tom Wescott

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                Is there a connection to the murders? Possibly. I could name a few suspicious characters. But I've never found anything solid.

                As for the Fenians, I don't know much about them, except they were a bunch of Irishmen.

                Yours truly,

                Tom Wescott
                Hello Tom,

                1) I have given you a name. John Turner/Le Grand. I can see no reason why this man ISN'T the same person as John Turner, IWMC member. Tell me why he CAN'T be?

                2) Le Grand, was NOT Irish...but was involved with the Fenians wasn't he?


                with best wishes

                Phil
                Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                Justice for the 96 = achieved
                Accountability? ....

                Comment


                • #83
                  I have the name John Turner numerous times in my files and notes. I don't think he ended up in the slammer for blackmailing.

                  Le Grand was not Irish, but he has some involvement with the Fenians that Debra A and I are trying to flesh out.

                  But don't let me be a fuddyduddy. See what you can find.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Hello Tom,

                    Thanks, and you too!

                    I am starting think there is a possiblity this guy Turner/Le Grand killed Liz Stride. And I think that is possibly who Schwartz saw. And possibly why he refused to testify. Because of Turner's/Le Grand's Fenianism. Fear. Not of hanging a jew... but about being the squeal on Le Grand. Even years afterwards.

                    As you said, the Fenians were known to be working in CONJUNCTION with the Anarchists. Like the ones in Berner St. IWMC.

                    Can you think of the kerfuddle this would cause if this lot got out at the time? That ONE of the murderers was a Fenian sympathiser?
                    It HAD to be covered up.

                    I reckon THAT is why those Secret Files are under lock and key. Its the Fenian Issue.

                    best wishes

                    Phil
                    Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                    Justice for the 96 = achieved
                    Accountability? ....

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Phil,

                      I see you think John Turner and Le Grand are the same man. Rest assured they are two different people.

                      Originally posted by Phil Carter
                      As you said, the Fenians were known to be working in CONJUNCTION with the Anarchists. Like the ones in Berner St. IWMC.
                      Steady on, Phil. I didn't say all that. And many of the Berner Street peeps were peaceful socialists.

                      Yours truly,

                      Tom Wescott

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Hello Tom


                        Quote Tom Westcott... Naturally, Fenians and anarchists would run across each other and even work together. But to what extent? Certainly, they both dealt in bombs and such. The Berner Street club is no exception. This is one line I plan to research more in the future.

                        best wishes

                        Phil
                        Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                        Justice for the 96 = achieved
                        Accountability? ....

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
                          Phil,

                          I see you think John Turner and Le Grand are the same man. Rest assured they are two different people.
                          Hello Tom...

                          So they are different people.
                          Le Grand kills Stride.
                          And when he gets banged up later... he uses the nom de plume...
                          John Turner.

                          best wishes

                          Phil
                          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                          Justice for the 96 = achieved
                          Accountability? ....

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post

                            Can you think of the kerfuddle this would cause if this lot got out at the time?

                            That ONE of the murderers was a Fenian sympathiser?
                            It HAD to be covered up.


                            I reckon THAT is why those Secret Files are under lock and key. Its the Fenian Issue.
                            Sorry, Phil, I don't follow your argument.

                            Surely if one of the murderers was known to the police and believed to be a Fenian sympathizer,

                            the government would PUBLICIZE this fact to discredit the Fenians???


                            Thanks & best regards, Archaic

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Hmg

                              Hello Archaic.

                              "Surely if one of the murderers was known to the police and believed to be a Fenian sympathizer,

                              the government would PUBLICIZE this fact to discredit the Fenians???"

                              Well, what effect would that have had on Her Majesty's Government? (Fenians have perpetrated . . . )

                              The best.
                              LC

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Archaic View Post
                                Sorry, Phil, I don't follow your argument.

                                Surely if one of the murderers was known to the police and believed to be a Fenian sympathizer,
                                the government would PUBLICIZE this fact to discredit the Fenians???


                                Thanks & best regards, Archaic
                                Archaic,

                                If you were sitting at the top, AFTER the tension surrounding Anarchy, Trafalgar Square, The Fenian Plot to kill Balfour, The Parnell commission just around the corner, the hew and cry about the Whitechapel murders from the masses, the newspapers stirrring it up, the fake letters being PUBLISHED, said by many inadvisedly, the place was at social boiling point! Every Tom Dick and Harry being arrested all over the area, undercover policemen, The Queen asking questions and making statements, Parliament in turmoil, Warren's head on the block, amongst MANY others... Would YOU risk putting this info out?

                                No, I think this was a prevention thing. Say nothing. Sit on it. Don't risk the backlash. A backlash that could ask one thing from the masses...

                                If we have a LOOSE CANON person with Fenian connections killing ONE woman in this series...if not more, and the Police don't solve it... just how strong ARE this group of people? At what length would they go before they stop? Murderers, bomb plots of Balfour, the Post Office job in the same area?... It would put FEAR on the streets...and with the anarchists making hay of it, the smell of revolution in the air, which WAS feared by Government. (Remember, I believe there were seven (7) attempts on Queen Victoria's life).

                                This was a very serious situation. Rememeber, in those days, the possibility of revolution was backed up by the thought of collapse of the entire system... they remembered what happened in France. And how the top tier of the system collapsed then.
                                There was a far greater chance of revolution in those days even though Britain was supposed to be a civilized nation. And the Governments priority was buliding and maintaining THE EMPIRE.Through law and order, and control.

                                Possibility that the very country being the head of an Empire, whilst under revolution..... the consequences would have sent the possibility of repercussions throughout that Empire. More masses rising up.

                                The Empire meant everything to the powers that be.

                                That is why Archaic, I believe those Secret File documents were sealed THEN in perpituity.
                                Thats the answer.


                                best wishes

                                Phil
                                Last edited by Phil Carter; 12-22-2009, 03:23 AM.
                                Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                                Justice for the 96 = achieved
                                Accountability? ....

                                Comment

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