West End prostitution

[JTRSickert]

Hello. As most of you are aware from the details of Mary Kelly's life, she worked for a while as a prostitute in a West End brothel, went to Paris, then came back and settled in the East End. The questions I had were:

1. Does anyone know the proper names of any of these alleged West End brothels (not including the one on Cleveland Street)?

2. How was prostitution regulated in the West End? If it was against the law, was the British government tolerant of it or did they make every effort to shut them down as well?

3. If West End prostituiton existed, why would some West Enders go to Whitechapel/Spitalfields for sexual favors when they had brothels in their own neighborhood? IS it because it was cheaper?

4. Finally, can anyone guess why Kelly decided to go in the East End when she could have just returned to her West End brothel?

[c.d.]

Hi JTR,

We don't know the circumstances under which Mary left the West End. She might have burned her bridges and was not welcome back. Blacklisted if you will.

If you visit a brothel, you are going to be seen by a number of people. Those desiring anonymity might prefer a more out of the way location and less contact with others.

c.d.

[c.d.]

It could be the case that brothels could afford to pay protection money so that the police looked the other way.

c.d.

[perrymason]

The brothel situation changed quite dramatically across the Metropolis in 1887, if you can believe a biographers account. According to his biographer, Fred Charrington, an heir to a local brewing fortune went on a campaign of sorts in 1887 and into 1889 to rid the city of London of brothels. Its claimed that he saw to it personally that some 200 were closed, for the upper and lower classes.... and his picture was apparently on the walls of many brothels to remind them of their "nemesis" and his appearance.

i seriously doubt that we would find anything like a conventional brothel in the East End at that time, although there may have been plenty of courts like Millers... filled with single women who did that kind of work. Or maybe a lodging house that was populated by many down and out prostitutes and a manager making extra money based on housing and "protecting" them.

But a brothel like the kind Mary worked in catered to the wealthier West End types, based on the description we have of some of the garments she left there,...and a supposed dalliance for a fortnight in Paris likely as a courtesan.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

i seriously doubt that we would find anything like a conventional brothel in the East End at that time, although there may have been plenty of courts like Millers... filled with single women who did that kind of work.

Myth alert! Of the perhaps 30 people who lived in Miller's Court, we know the names of only two other women who were arguably "doing that sort of work" at the time of Kelly's death - and the names of as many, if not more, residents who did not.

Previous and subsequent censuses show that Miller's Court housed relatively few women who might reasonably have been expected to prostitute themselves, and they were heavily outnumbered by the couples and families who lived there. The fact that only two women (Cox and Prater) seem to have been out and about at the times during which Kelly was active is in full accord with that picture.

[perrymason]

Myth alert! Of the perhaps 30 people who lived in Miller's Court, we know the names of only two other women who were arguably "doing that sort of work" at the time of Kelly's death - and the names of as many, if not more, residents who did not.

Previous and subsequent censuses show that Miller's Court housed relatively few women who might reasonably have been expected to prostitute themselves, and they were heavily outnumbered by the couples and families who lived there. The fact that only two women (Cox and Prater) seem to have been out and about at the times during which Kelly was active is in full accord with that picture.

Well Sam, we know that Mary Ann solicited, Julia Vanturney is said to likely have been one, Elizabeth Prater may well be supporting herself that way, we had Maria Harvey who also may have solicited to survive living there a few days, and we have Mary Jane.

To my count thats as many as 5 women at one time, and those are only the ones we know a bit about.

All the best G

[JTRSickert]

Does anyone here think "Mary Kelly" might just have been the name she acquired when she was working at the West End brothel? We know today how strippers and high-priced call girls will adopt nicknames (example, Ashley Dupre adopted the name "Kristen" when she was working as a call girl and having the governor of NY as one of her clients) rather than using their real names. So, does anyone think that the madam at this alleged West End brothel might have given "Mary" her new name since it sounded very Irish and she claimed to be of Irish descent. And, maybe after she left the brothel, the name just stuck.

[perrymason]

Does anyone here think "Mary Kelly" might just have been the name she acquired when she was working at the West End brothel? We know today how strippers and high-priced call girls will adopt nicknames (example, Ashley Dupre adopted the name "Kristen" when she was working as a call girl and having the governor of NY as one of her clients) rather than using their real names. So, does anyone think that the madam at this alleged West End brothel might have given "Mary" her new name since it sounded very Irish and she claimed to be of Irish descent. And, maybe after she left the brothel, the name just stuck.

I think JTR that the brothel is where she adopted her "Marie Jeanette" personna, one that landed her a short gig as a companion or consort in France it appears. My bet is that she learned some French and maybe faked an accent while working there.....certainly not something that was uncommon....Im sure many brothel women adopted personnas that were exotic and piqued the imagination of the London clientele....and purchased the wardrobe to facilitate the illusions.

In fact Ive seen documentaries about the Chicken Ranch in Las Vegas and some other licensed brothels in the modern world like in Amsterdam, and you see the same "fantasy" theme girls working at those places today....ones a cowboy, ones a cheerleader, ones dressed like a geisha....that kind of thing.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

Well Sam, we know that Mary Ann solicited, Julia Vanturney is said to likely have been one, Elizabeth Prater may well be supporting herself that way, we had Maria Harvey who also may have solicited to survive living there a few days, and we have Mary Jane.

To my count thats as many as 5 women at one time, and those are only the ones we know a bit about.

Harvey did not officially live there, Mike, and you are speculating about Venturney. That makes three... minus Kelly, that leaves the two I first thought of, unless Diddles was on the game too.

Against that we have at least two Keylers, one Venturney (giving her the benefit of the doubt), and at least two Picketts. As I pointed out, we seem to have have nobody else apart from Cox and Prater who were up and about during the "whoring hours". Added to that, we have the evidence of the censuses which show Miller's Court mainly occupied by people who don't appear likely to have been prostitutes. Certainly not more than just about any other street, court or doss-house in the vicinity. Miller's Court may have been many things, but "filled with single women who did that kind of work" it was not.

If someone asks a question that can be answered using objective thinking and legitimate historical sources, it might be better to use them, rather than perpetuate the same old hoary (whorey?) Ripper myths and misunderstandings.

[Sam Flynn]

I think JTR that the brothel is where she adopted her "Marie Jeanette" personna, one that landed her a short gig as a companion or consort in France it appears.

Possibly, although "Marie Jeanette" seems to have been an affectation only applied in her dealings with Joe Barnett. Others, including those who knew Kelly as a prostitute back in her Ratcliff Highway days, seem to have referred to her as plain "Mary Jane Kelly". Since her descent into Ratcliff apparently followed immediately her adventures in the West End and France, one might have thought that the "Marie Jeanette" appellation would have been used from "Ratcliff Day Zero", if she had used it previously at all.

[JTRSickert]

Thanks guys. I completely forgot about the "Marie Jeanette" name. Duh!