"Site" unseen?

[karensa]

Not necessarily...

They start out in that position...but we really have to speculate the actual interaction but considering there were no reported blood curdling screams happening, either they were rendered unable early on, or they didn't have any reason to. If they're standing, and he's facing her and up close, he could easily whip out a blade and slice the neck or stab before she knew what happened. He could've, as suggested above, held his hand over her mouth and told her if she makes a sound she's dead...and she'd comply. Holding his hand over her mouth with one hand and stabbing or cutting or slicing with the other would be the easiest, fastest, quietest method...no WWF belt required - this happens all the time in male on female assault, pretty standard way of handling it really. It doesn't take long to die from throat slicing. If any of their cause of death was strictly strangulation, then I see the problem but it'd probably be easy to get her on the ground - he could've just nailed her in the jaw and she hit the ground already unconscious. Also known as the sucker punch.

If a man suddenly pulled a knife on you with his other hand over your mouth, I'd wager you'd get on the ground or whatever he told you to do and do it quietly.

[karensa]

Um...if you're female, that is...

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello Karen. Strangulation is a good bet--at least for Polly and Annie. That would account for the swelling and lacerations on the tongue.

The best.
LC

[karensa]

Ah okay then.

I keep remembering this show and it's driving me nuts I can't remember specifically what it was, seems like it was a movie but then it also seems like it came from one of the forensic shows...

I remember a lawyer sort telling a jury to count for like 7 minutes - everybody's quiet for this period of time...and he explains 7 minutes, this is how long it took the victim to die from being strangled (or suffocated) one.

Driving me nuts now

[lynn cates]

swoon

Hello Karen. A swoon can occur in less than a minute. Then on the back she's placed and the left carotid severed.

The best.
LC

[smezenen]

karensa,
As you say a quick knife strike to the throat would be the quickest way to kill someone but then there would be blood spray everywhere. The evidence at the crime scene suggests the victims were either dead or almost dead (slowed heart rate) when their throats where cut because there is very little blood spray and in fact the amount of blood actually pooled near the neck is small compared to someone bleeding out thru the throat. The lack of blood would indicate lack of heart beat, and would further point to strangulation . There is other evidence to support strangulation as Lynn indicates.
Hand to hand combat was one of my specialties for 22 years in the U.S. Army. Using my experience and knowledge of strangulation techniques I can say that yes strangulation from the front using just your hands is very difficult, it takes a long time, it takes a lot of strength, you are exposed to counter strikes, there is a chance the victim will break the hold and yell, the victim also has the ability to make noises such as banging their feet into things like wooden fences and other such scuffling noises. Strangulation from the rear however is a very different story. First from the rear place you entire arm around your victims throat with your elbow under their chin, that would place you forearm on one side of the neck over the carotid artery and your bicep on the other, reach all the way around and get a firm grasp on the lapel of your own jacket, next place your other arm aver the first and behind the victims head with your palm facing you, now as you slide the rear arm down behind the throat rotate your palm forward, bend your knees, and lean back . You have just performed the "Rear Naked Choke" which would be my choice for the quickest choke hold to put a victims lights out. A variant of This type of hold was used in Lancashire style wrestling as well as "Catch" style wrestling as early as 1700. Royce Gracie used this very hold against Gerard Gordeau, In the first Ultimate Fighting Competition and put him out in less than 2 seconds. As far as the comments about these being "WWF" techniques, I will only say that "WWF" is fake as a 3 dollar bill, we all know it is scripted, and it's a shame that people equate it with real wrestling styles such as "Catch as Catch Can", "Greaco Roman" and especially Lancashire style wrestling where the only rule is you cannot deliberately break an opponents' bones.

[perrymason]

Karensa,

You seem to be missing 2 very important parts of the equation here.....1, the Canonical victims 1, 2 and 4 were assumed to have their throats cut while unresisting and lying on their backs....only Liz Stride may have been cut while standing or falling, and secondly, the choice of position for outdoor coitus with a prostitute in the LVP was from the rear, with the woman lifting her skirts at the back. Im sure part of the reason for this position was due to the kind of breath the clients would likely have had.

All the best.

[Observer]

Hi Mike

Or they just liked it doggy fashion. And Liz Stride could not have been cut while standing or falling as there would have been blood trails on the walls and ground, the only trail of blood extended from her neck into the gutter, which proves she was cut whilst lying down.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Mike. So THAT'S what Liz kept the cachous for! (Couldn't resist.)

The best.
LC

[lynn cates]

making the cut

Hello Observer. That would undoubtedly be true given Liz's carotid were severed like the others. But I wonder if the incomplete severance might affect that result?

The best.
LC

[Fisherman]

Observer writes:

"Liz Stride could not have been cut while standing or falling as there would have been blood trails on the walls and ground, the only trail of blood extended from her neck into the gutter, which proves she was cut whilst lying down."

Did you ever get the chance to read Dave Yosts "Liz Stride and Jack the Ripper", Observer? Yost argues that if the cut was delivered as Stride was already falling to her left, then the hole in her neck may have been aimed at the ground and she could easily have fallen on top of the blood that exited her artery.
I find this a very compelling suggestion, especially when we consider the cachous. The obvious thing to guess would be that she did not hold them in her hand as she was thrown to the ground (or fell to it) outside the gates. In such a case, she would have dropped them, in all probability.

So, if we accept that she brought them out at a later stage, then we may be faced with a scenario where she is taken by complete surprise by her killer. Her position in the yard tells us that she seemingly was on her way out as the killer grabbed her by her scarf from behind. He turned the scarf sharply to the left, sending Stride falling backwards and to her left, cut her neck as she was on her way down, let go of the body as he had finished the cut, and her blood had only a split second to gush out before she landed upon the pool forming on the ground.
The tight grip on her scarf ensured silence, and in combination with the cut it made her clench her fist around the cachous. If she had been taken down and placed on the ground BEFORE she was cut she would in all probability have let go of the cachous.
The sometimes suggested notion that the cachous were placed in her hand by her killer after the deed holds little water. If that had happened, then why would the killer pick a few of the cachous out and scatter them around?

To me, this is by far the most credible scenario. And as you know, it was supported by Blackwell, when it comes to the possibility of Stride being cut before she hit the ground. After that, it would have offered an awkward task to cut into the left side of her neck, given the position she ended up in.

The best, Observer!
Fisherman

[perrymason]

Some good points on this as usual Fisherman, just wanted to add that with respect to the cashous and where they are when Liz is found, I believe your correct in your position that the firm clench her hand was in suggests they were there as she was cut, and there is no indication that she had anything in her hands at all with Israel in his BSM story.

That means, using the story as probably factual, that she takes out the cashous while likely still in the company of the man that assaulted her. When Pipeman and Schwartz are scared off by the "Lipski" taunt, BSM is helping Liz to her feet....and its approximately 12:46am. She can receive her fatal cut at anytime after that moment to be within Blackwells estimate...one I believe that indicates he believed the probability was that she was cut after 12:46am and before 12:56am, Diemshutz arrives 4 minutes later, she is still bleeding heavily when he finds her.....ergo, she would have had to put the cashous in her hand within a minute or two of the altercation outside the gates at the outside. There is every indication that she might still be in the company of BSM when she does that.....if he enters the picture trying to get Liz to go somewhere with her, is her tripping or falling likely to dissuade him from that notion immediately after he helps her rise? Or would he talk with her?

Not immediately would be my guess. But she only has a few minutes left where she can place those into her hands.

So she is with BSM after an altercation, and he is trying now to talk to her or explain his "altercation" with her.I dont see that as being a time indicative of some cashous to her....I think in that story he is a stranger, and in that case, she would be wary when she rises....not questioning her breaths freshness.

I dont think there is adequate calming "recovery" time for Liz in Israels story to explain why she had sweetmeats or cashous in her hand.

That coupled with the fact that Israel, by all appearances, didnt testify at the Inquest...makes me wonder whether Liz's last few minutes, her last 10 to be specific, was spent recovering from an altercation or whether she was in the final stages of her peaceful wait for someone, someone she was to meet at around 1am there.

All the best

[Observer]

Hi Lynn

Hello Observer. That would undoubtedly be true given Liz's carotid were severed like the others. But I wonder if the incomplete severance might affect that result?

The best.
LC

In reality the flow of blood that issued from Liz Strides throat was not unlike the other victims, only the posterior portion of the carotid remained attached, Dr Philips referred to the flow of blood as a stream. For me, if Liz Stride was cut as she fell then I'd expect to see traces of blood splattered about the yard.

Hi Fisherman

First time I've heard of Dave Yosts theory, and although it has it's merits I can't see it working my friend. I doubt whether a straight clean cut of six inches could have been administred with the movement involved. Also Liz Stride had bruises under the collar bone of both shoulders, are we assuming the killer had three hands? Regarding the cachous we have a bit of a dilema here, Dr Blackwell stated

"I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand."

In contradiction Dr Philips stated

"The body was lying on its left side, the face being turned towards the wall, the head towards the yard, and the feet toward the street. The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell"

I used the inquest report here on casebook for my quotes by the way.

all the best

Observer

[lynn cates]

giving a hand

Hello Observer. Did Blackwell mean by:

"I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand."

that he removed them from PHILLIP'S hand?

The best.
LC

[Observer]

Apparently not Lynn

"I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased"

He also stated that it was he who spilt them, whilst removing them. There was discussion about this a while back, can't remember the outcome though.

all the best

Observer