A visit from America

[Phil Carter]

This has probably, almost certainly, been observed before, and I humbly apologise if so...but incase it hasn't (yeah, right, whom I am kidding!)... I present the following on Casebook's own site below.. and pose a few simple points afterwards..

Joseph Lave

Informant.

Joseph Lave had recently arrived in England from the USA and was staying temporarily at the International Working Men's Educational Club at 40 Berner Street on the night of Elizabeth Stride's murder. In a statement to the press, he claimed that he had gone into Dutfield's Yard at 12.40am to get a breath of fresh air: "So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions."[1]

It was so dark in the yard that he had to feel his way along the wall of the club to find his way back in.[2]


[edit]
References

1. ↑ Evening News, 1st October 1888
2. ↑ Jack the Ripper: An Encyclopaedia, John J Eddleston (Metro 2002)

Umm, an visitor from America? Recently arrived? At the scene of the Stride attack? Reminds me of someone called Tumblety.

A few points.. without having checked the census records et al..
1) LAVE is a very unusual last name. Surely NOT Russian?
2) Use of an alias possibility? (Statement was given to the Press, not the Police, though he was a witness at the inquest)
3) Have we a description of Lave?


I'm not for one tick suggesting he was Tumblety.. but that he was a recent immigrant from the USA seemed coincidental, especially as he was at the scene of one of the crimes.

I only pose these points as observations. Just something that made me wonder. I apologise for any time wasted.

best wishes

Phil

[Uncle Jack]

I am sure SPE would be interested and have something to add to the theory but in regards to Stride, he tends to dismiss her as a Ripper victim, as I do myself.

I don't have any faith in Tumblety as a suspect but he was a rather shady character so who knows....

[c.d.]

I can't imagine Tumblety staying anywhere but a first class hotel...and probably skipping out on his bill.

c.d.

[Phil Carter]

Hi again,

Uncle Jack.. it's not really a theory, more an observation... and I too would be interested as well to see if SPE raised an eyebrow or two. Strange, but this has been sitting right in front of me and I didn't notice it until now. The plethora of information, facts, dates, times and names can sometimes require one to take a step back now and again. Anyway, as I said, I don't think there is anything in it, just the co-incidence struck me as striking, given the exact location.

cd... agreed. But if the police are prepared to disguise themselves to mingle in, including dressing up as women, I can see no reason why the killer wouldn't try to mingle in if he decided he had cause to.

best wishes

Phil

[Graham]

A gentile allowed into what was in effect a Jewish/Zionist political party meeting? Don't think so, somehow....

Graham

[ChrisGeorge]

A few points.. without having checked the census records et al..
1) LAVE is a very unusual last name. Surely NOT Russian?
2) Use of an alias possibility? (Statement was given to the Press, not the Police, though he was a witness at the inquest)
3) Have we a description of Lave?

Hello Phil

Howard Brown at JtR Forums has found the 1900 US Census record for a Joseph Lave and family living in Cook County, Illinois. A Russian-born jeweller.

Of course, "Lave" could be a shortened or anglicized version of some longer Eastern European name, just as the name of Joseph Lawende (he of the Eddowes case) is sometimes rendered as "Lavender."

Chris

[Phil Carter]

Hello Chris,

Ah!... no wonder I didnt find it.. trolling throught he census records for England only! What a twit I am... So we know that at sometime between 1888 and 1900 Joe Lave and family all moved to Illonois.
That seems to have dotted another "i"... excellent! Thank you!

best wishes

Phil

I just got a msg from Howard with exactly that you said...
Thank you so much for your kind reply and effort.

I was starting to wonder about this, as Lave, in England, is a West Country name I believe, and it didn't make sense.

[ChrisGeorge]

Your welcome, Phil. I will though repeat here what I just wrote to Howard on the other forum.

Hello Howard

The Joseph Lave you have found could be the same Joseph Lave who was staying at the socialist club in Berner Street in 1888. On the other hand, it would appear to me that if Joseph Lave was a radical visiting from the United States, we would be more looking for a single man able to travel from country to country, and not a settled Russian-born jeweller with a family. If he has a family and a business what is he doing in England? Just a thought.

Chris

[Phil Carter]

travel back and forth

Chris..

Yes, I admit it does seem strange, but as he is never listed in the censuses in England, it would indicate he traveled to GB whilst his family were based in USA. Are there any other censuses from the USA that shows the whole family?
Jeweller...hmmm... now what would a jeweller, well established by 1900 it seems (the eldest son is a jeweller too), be doing in Whitechapel?

best regards,

Phil

[smezenen]

Certainly not the same Joseph Lave of 1888 but a throat cutting killer of more recent times.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/oagnews/release.php?id=2173

Tuesday, September 11, 2007

Media Advisory: Joseph Lave scheduled for execution

AUSTIN – Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott offers the following information about Joseph Roland Lave, who is scheduled to be executed after 6 p.m. Thursday, September 13, 2007, for the capital murder of Justin Marquart during a robbery at a Richardson sporting goods store. A summary of the evidence presented at trial follows.


FACTS OF THE CRIME
On the evening of November 25, 1992, Joseph Lave, James Langston and Timothy Bates went to a Herman’s Sporting Goods store in Richardson, about thirty minutes after the business had closed its doors for the day.

Using a key he had as an employee of the store, Langston let himself and Lave in through the front door and opened a rear door for Bates to enter.

The trio confronted store manager Angela King and took money from the safe after they had King unlock it. The men taped King’s hands and face with duct tape and taped two male employees up, as well.

According to Bates, Langston and Lave delivered lethal blows to the heads of the two male employees and cut their necks with a knife. The carotid arteries and jugular veins were severed with incisions that cut to the boys’ backbones, effectively decapitating the victims. King lost consciousness when she received a hammer blow. Her throat was also sliced, but the blade having failed to sever her carotid artery, she survived.

King awoke, and feeling the bloody wound on her neck, thought she had been shot. She dialed 9-1-1. King identified Langston as one of the robbers.

At about 3 a.m., two Richardson police officers went to Langston’s apartment complex and ordered Langston to freeze when he drove up in his truck. Instead, Langston struck one of the officers with his vehicle; that officer fired his weapon, fatally wounding Langston.

A few hours later, police arrested Timothy Bates at his house. Bates eventually led the police to Lave.

When officers executed a search warrant at Lave’s apartment and car on November 28, 1992, they seized a sweat jacket from Lave’s closet and a fixed-blade knife and some Herman’s tags from his dresser. They also seized a pair of tennis shoes from the trunk and a roll of duct tape from behind the passenger seat of Lave’s car. The property seized from Lave was later identified as Herman’s merchandise.

Lave surrendered to Richardson police on November 30, 1992.


PROCEDURAL HISTORY
September 28, 1993 — A Dallas County grand jury indicted Lave for the capital murder of store employee Justin Marquart.
March 29, 1994 — A jury found Lave guilty of capital murder and following a separate punishment hearing, the court assessed a sentence of death.
November 20, 1996 — Lave’s conviction and death sentence were affirmed by the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals.
January 26, 1998 — Lave filed an application for writ of habeas corpus in the state trial court.
September 20, 2000 — The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied habeas relief.
January 22, 2001 — Lave filed a petition for writ of habeas corpus in a Dallas federal district court.
June 17, 2004 — The federal district court denied habeas relief on all of Lave’s claims.
March 22, 2006 — The 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the district court’s denial of habeas relief.
June 13, 2006 — Lave sought certiorari review in the U.S. Supreme Court.
March 5, 2007 — The Supreme Court denied certiorari review.
June 13, 2007 — The trial court entered an order setting the execution date for September 13, 2007.


PRIOR CRIMINAL HISTORY
The State’s punishment evidence established a lack of remorse on Lave’s part both during and after the crime. An acquaintance testified that Lave arrived at his apartment shortly after the crime with his girlfriend and some beer, and that Lave’s behavior neither indicated that he had just been involved in a heinous crime nor demonstrated remorse. To the contrary, Lave’s actions suggested he was emotionally unaffected by the offense.

The State also put forth evidence of Lave’s prior convictions and criminal behavior, arguing that these extraneous acts showed an escalating propensity for violence and lawlessness. One witness testified that Lave used marijuana and cocaine in public. Another witness testified that Lave bragged about being a “hustler,” carried a gun, once shot at someone, and had robbed someone. A Houston Police Officer testified that Lave had engaged in a struggle with another officer who was attempting to arrest him and that when Lave had reached for his waist, the officer hit him on the head with his flashlight and ended the fight; Lave was carrying a loaded gun in his pocket.


MISCELLANEOUS
For additional information and statistics, please go to the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website, www.tdcj.state.tx.us.