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**Robert** · 02-21-2008, 05:16 PM

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Jimmy10th February 2006, 10:56 AM
Rob,

Excellent stuff!

Thinking of taking a trip to the History Libray myself soon.

Cheers

Jimmy

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Veritas21st February 2006, 04:23 PM
Here is a nice one of Wood Buildings from the 1970's.
Great photos! I first took a Ripper tour in 1986 and we met at Whitechapel Station and walked through Wood's Buildings to get to Durward Street. It was the most atmospheric of all the Ripper sites. Last November I went on my usual 'pilrgimage' to Whitechapel/Spitalfields and saw that Wood's Buildings was blocked off. I do remember the smell of urine and it is a nasty place but so darn atmospheric. I think it was blocked off for security reasons. Throughout the 1980's I took photos of Durward Street before the demolition of the gates took palce and I am so glad that I did. Too bad that the Ripper tours skip Durward street and even Henriques Treet (Berenre Street) which is not that far from Mitre Square.

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Jimmy21st February 2006, 04:35 PM
Veritas,

Yeah, Durward Street always had something... myself and Rob Clack have mentioned this on the boards. Photo's from the 70's and 80's seem thin on the ground, though; plenty from the 60's and 90's-onwards.

Have you still got them? The 80's was certainly an atmospheric time for the old Buck's Row. Could you post them, I'm sure lots of people would like to see 'em, myself notwithstanding!

Jimmy

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rclack26th February 2006, 03:43 PM
I did some maps of Bucks Row and how they would have looked in 1888.
I used a combination of the 1873 and 1894 O.S maps. I will be redoing them again once I get my hands on a yard to the mile plans.

I can't be 100% accurate about the location of the mortuary but it's one of the two buildings above the word mortuary.

An overview of the area.

901

A close up of the scene of crime

900

Hopefully because it's a small file size, you'll be able to make out the names.

Rob

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rclack26th February 2006, 05:57 PM
I've just had my ears bent back by Jimmy, who spotted a error on my part. The Western end of Bucks Row may still have been called Whites Row in 1888. I'm not certain of this as it is a bit tricky to ascertain when the name changes take place. It might have been when the whole street was changed to Durward Street in 1891, but my feeling is he's right.

Rob

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nicole26th February 2006, 06:12 PM
Hi Rob,

How do you mean 'The Western end of Bucks Row'? Do you mean where it widens out - east of the Board School (Great Eastern Square)? Or do you mean further on down towards Baker's Row? Or both?

Nicky.

ps. Didn't White's Row run parellel with Dorset Street? Or were there two White's Rows?

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rclack26th February 2006, 06:43 PM
Hi Nicky

This is what I meant.

909

And your right there were at least two Whites Row. The one South of Dorset Street was White's Row and the one on the end of Bucks Row was Whites Row.

Now can you remember who I asked to check my maps before I posted them? as I need to tell them there fired.

All the best

Rob

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Maureen26th February 2006, 06:50 PM
Too bad that the Ripper tours skip Durward street and even Henriques Treet (Berenre Street) which is not that far from Mitre Square.
Oh, no!

I've finally booked my trip to London and now Durward Street isn't on the Ripper tours? Please tell me it isn't so. That is the location I am most interested in visiting.

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Jimmy26th February 2006, 07:21 PM
Rob,
Sorry about that, but the map looks fine now!

Incidentally, from notes I made at the THLHL years back, White's Row and Buck's Row were renamed and renumbered as Durward Street on 25th October 1894. This was in a book (I think it was a council document) the publication date of which I am not sure, that had local street renamings in it.

-Browne's Lane (et al) became Hanbury Street in March 1876.
-George Yd became Gunthorpe St in 1912
-Dorset Street became Duval St in 1904
-Berner St wasn't in it, as I think it was published too late. Did that renaming happen in the early 60's?

Maureen,
I'm sure Durward Street will be on your tour (and probably Berner Street); it'd be rude not to!

All the best

Jimmy

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rclack26th February 2006, 08:27 PM
Thanks Jimmy,

Maureen, best check with people who run the tours first or ask Phil Hutchinson, he's normally lurking around somewhere.

Rob

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Marky26th February 2006, 08:27 PM
hope no one's asked this already, couldn't find it: was the roebuck pub there in 1888? and where abouts (on the brilliant detailled maps!) was it? it looks from the photos like it was on a corner, but i can't work out where...

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rclack26th February 2006, 08:35 PM
Hi Marky,

It's on the South corner of Bucks Row and Brady Street. The photos on this site were taken in Brady Street looking South towards Whitechapel Road, so the Roebuck and Bucks Row are on the right. I've looked at directories from the 1880's to 1910's and they just list the premises as a Beer House. So I don't know if it was called The Roebuck or something else.

All the best

Rob

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Marky26th February 2006, 08:51 PM
- thanks for clearing that up rob!

)

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Jimmy26th February 2006, 08:53 PM
On the 1862 map there is a premises on the site of the Roebuck, but whether it's a pub/beershop or not, is something else.

It's strange as it is marked as a public house on the 1873 map, but then disappears on the 1894 and 1913 versions.

Incidentally... this map is from 1989. Interesting as it shows Durward Street with practically no buildings. 910

Jimmy

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rclack26th February 2006, 09:06 PM
Hi Jimmy, Marky

That map would be right for 1989 as there was only the Board School, Essex Wharf and Brady House standing.

As for the Roebuck, that's a strange one I can't remember what the difference's between a beer house and a public house was, but I do know beer houses weren't marked on the O.S. maps but public houses were. That's why 'The Britannia' and 'Nelsons Beerhouse' were not on the old O.S maps.

All the best

Rob

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Jimmy26th February 2006, 09:23 PM
Rob,

Did a google search about beer houses. Here's the difference:

QUOTE:
'Strange as it may seem today beer houses were actually created by an Act of Parliament which in part was aimed at reducing the amount of public drunkenness.
Public drunkenness it was said was in large measure due to a reduction in the duty on gin and the consequent rise in the number of (often unlicensed) gin palaces.
It was a provision within the 1830 Beer Act therefore which brought into being an entirely new tier of drinking establishment - the beer house - which being licensed only for six days a week (i.e. not Sundays) for the sale only of beer and cider (not wine and spirits) was considered by some concerned parties as being of assistance towards helping entice the populace away from its excessive consumption of gin.
Beer it should be remembered was at this time very much an everyday drink - even children drank so called small beer - and it was seen by those agitators among the evangelicals and temperance movements as very much a secondary evil.'

Only fully licenced houses (those that included the sale of wines and spirits) were marked on maps.

Hope that helps. Certainly cleared it up for me, I didn't know the difference either.

Jimmy

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rclack26th February 2006, 09:29 PM
Thanks Jimmy, you learn something new everyday here.

All the best

Rob

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Maureen26th February 2006, 09:52 PM
Jimmy, Rob, thanks for the advice on tours. Also, the maps and photos are great and should help me to get my bearings.

Maureen

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George Hutchinson27th February 2006, 06:05 PM
Hi Veritas - must have missed your initial post about the omission of Durward Street and Henriques Street on guided tours.

I'm afraid I disagree with what you say about Henriques Street being accessible. It isn't. It's a good 10 minutes walk when you have 40 overweight tourists who are strangers to the area with you - and there is nowhere of note to stop on the way and nowhere to go afterwards except back again. If one were to do a deluxe tour of ALL the sites (as I did for a friend down from Scotland a year ago) then indeed I have a great route that would take about 3 hours to do if you were telling the stories as well. That would include Pinchin Street, Swallow Gardens, Mulberry Street, Osborn Street, Brick Lane etc. However, tourists don't want that. They want thrills and spills for 90 minutes that isn't hard on the brain or the feet and they can go back to their hotels and forget afterwards.

I think there might be one guide who still takes his groups to all 5 canonical murder sites, but this same person is the one who thinks Dutfields Yard was south of the junction with Fairclough Street and on the opposite side and that 29 Hanbury Street stills stands but has been renumbered. Needless to say, you might as well not bother!

PHILIP

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Jimmy27th February 2006, 08:26 PM
Ah! That more than explains the theories that Liz Stride was not a canonical Ripper victim.

It has nothing to do with MO or witnesses or domestics and the like; nobody would commit a Ripper atrocity in Berner Street because it's so bloomin' out of the way when you're walking about!

Henriques Street is my least visited site, to be honest. For that reason.

Jimmy

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rclack1st March 2006, 08:44 AM
Here's a directory listing for Durward Street 1895

958

Rob

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Justin Sherin20th March 2006, 01:14 AM
I'm in the area fairly often and first noticed Wood's Buildings being shut in November '04 - there was a council notice tacked to the gates quoting public safety, etc. True to its history it was popular with drunks, prostitutes and drug dealers. (Usually a few broken bottles, empty crack phials, reeked of urine, etc.) The bridge over the tube line was tempting to vandals.

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Veritas9th April 2006, 01:47 AM
Hi Philip:
I respectfully disagree regarding the distance between Henriques Street and Mitre Square. You are right taht when dealing with 40 or so overweight tourists it might be hard to do, but on my own I can make that walk in under 10 minutes. The key is getting across the street (crossing Whitechapel HIgh Street)! Also many tour guides do not point out George Yard buildings although I do believe (s do many Ripperologists) that Martha Tabram was a Ripper victim. Durward Street I guess is considered too dangerous (or actually meeting in front of the Whitechapel tube station is a bit dodgy). However when I first went on a Ripper walk (April 1986) there were only 20 or 25 of us, we met our guide jsut outside of the tube station and as he started to tell the Ripepr story he said "I am now going to take you to a sordid place." We walked through the pedestrain passage of Woods Buildings just as it started to get dark (smelling the urine!) and stopped at the site of the Nichols murder. I must say that as creeped out as I was I thought to myself that I would rather be nowhere else at that moment. (earlier that day I spent a wonderful time in beautiful Cambridge and going from Cambridge to Whitechapel was quite a contrast). Durward Street was my favorite canonical site. I will try to get some of my photos from the late 1980's of Durward Street up online. My problem with the Ripper tours is that they are so darn popular that they often have over 100 people on them. Also they waste too much time with the nonsensical "Masons" theory. Anyway thanks for giving me the forum to recall some great atmospheric moments.

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George Hutchinson9th April 2006, 08:43 AM
Hi Veritas.

You actually didn't disagree with me at all. Even a 10 minute brisk walk with one person would be a ridiculous amount of time to take between two sites on a guided tour. If it's more than 3 minutes the tourists wonder what the Hell you're playing at.

The only person who gets over 100 people on his tours is Don Rumbelow and it never fails to amaze me how people can't be bothered to look further afield. Of course Don is the #1, but with so many people you only get to see a few sites and at the back you can see or hear little, as I have heard from several people.

I only mention the Masonic rubbish to trash it (hey - only a few days before I meet the TV crew folks!) on the coach at the end (not Netley's). As far as I'm concerned, I only know of 3 Ripper guides I would personally feel happy being taken on a tour with who would get the facts right and - arrogantly, of course - I'm one of them. I do cover George Yard in detail and stop my group in passing on the actual spot (well, beneath it) but I don't tell the story on the spot any more due to the morons who like to attack groups up there. Believe me, Gunthorpe Street and Wentworth Street from that junction up to the junction with Commercial Street is actually the place you don't want to be.

PHILIP

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Veritas18th April 2006, 04:47 PM
Was the Woods Buildings there in 1888 as well as the passageway?

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Veritas18th April 2006, 04:49 PM
Maureen

The Original London Walks only visits Hanbury Street, Mitre Square, and Miller's Court (actually the car park). They do pass by (some of them anyway the site of the George Yard Building). I cannot vouch for the other Ripper walking tours.

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Veritas18th April 2006, 04:57 PM
Hi Veritas.

You actually didn't disagree with me at all. Even a 10 minute brisk walk with one person would be a ridiculous amount of time to take between two sites on a guided tour. If it's more than 3 minutes the tourists wonder what the Hell you're playing at.

The only person who gets over 100 people on his tours is Don Rumbelow and it never fails to amaze me how people can't be bothered to look further afield. Of course Don is the #1, but with so many people you only get to see a few sites and at the back you can see or hear little, as I have heard from several people.

I only mention the Masonic rubbish to trash it (hey - only a few days before I meet the TV crew folks!) on the coach at the end (not Netley's). As far as I'm concerned, I only know of 3 Ripper guides I would personally feel happy being taken on a tour with who would get the facts right and - arrogantly, of course - I'm one of them. I do cover George Yard in detail and stop my group in passing on the actual spot (well, beneath it) but I don't tell the story on the spot any more due to the morons who like to attack groups up there. Believe me, Gunthorpe Street and Wentworth Street from that junction up to the junction with Commercial Street is actually the place you don't want to be.

PHILIP
Hi Philip
Interesting take on Gunthorpe Street. I have been there on my own during the daytime. Although the area seemed a bit atmospheric (authentic Victorian) I never really felt in danger. At night it must really be creepy. By the way - where does Spitalfields and Whitechapel begin and end? They are distinct parishes I presume. Nichols was killed in Whitechapel, Chapman and Kelly in Spitalfields.

My very first Ripepr tour guide was big on promoting the Masons nonsense.

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Septic Blue18th April 2006, 06:00 PM
Hi Veritas,

The Civil Parishes of Christ Church Spitalfields and St. Mary Whitechapel, like those around them (St. Leonard Shoreditch, St. Matthew Bethnal Green, St. Dunstan Stepney, St. George in the East, etc...) look like peices of a jigsaw puzzle, when depicted on a map. Sometimes the boundaries run along thoroughfares, like Commercial Road, and other times they can be found running through someone's backyard.

The boundary separating Spitalfields and Whitechapel runs east along Wentworth Street, from Peticoat Lane to Brick Lane. It then runs north along Brick Lane to Osborn Place/Chicksand Street. It runs east through the backyards of the buildings on the north side of Osborn/Chicksand to a point just beyond Spelman Street, at which it forms a "T". The portion of the "T" running north, separates Spitalfields and Mile End New Town, while the portion of the "T" running south separates Whitechapel and Mile End New Town.

I can depict the boundary, using an Ordnance Survey, but the image might be too large for this board - I can try. Let me know if that would help!!! But, give me some time to try making it fit.

Colin 1651

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Septic Blue19th April 2006, 04:29 AM
Hi Veritas,

A follow up to my previous post:

1663
1873 OS: A portion of the Whitechapel/Spitalfields Sheet

Yellow: Most of Christ Church Spitalfields - it extends westward to the backyard of Providence Row Night Refuge & Convent, on Crispin Street, and northward to the backyards of the houses on the south side of Sclater Street.

Green: A very small portion of St. Matthew Bethnal Green

Red: All Saints Mile End New Town (Formerly a detached portion of St. Dunstan Stepney)

Blue: Most of St. Mary Whitechapel - it extends eastward along Whitechapel Road, to a point just beyond Brady Street (it includes Buck's Row and the London Hospital), and southward to Wellclose Square (it includes the Leman Street Police Station and Swallow Gardens)

Orange: A very small portion of St. Dunstan Stepney

Purple: A very small portion of St. George in the East

Aqua: A small portion of Holy Trinity Minories (not a Civil Parish, rather, a Liberty)

Grey: A small portion of St. Botolph Without Aldgate (not a Civil Parish, rather, a Parish Ward within The City)

1662
A closer look!!!!!

Colin 1660

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George Hutchinson19th April 2006, 10:36 AM
Great work, Colin. My tourists are always asking me where the borders are and
this clarifies things better.

Veritas - 3 murder sites is the price to pay for being in a group of 100 people.
They simply can't get to the backstreets. Incidentally, the Gunthopre Street area
is only a place to be wary of when the local teenagers are hanging about. If you
don't see any sign of a white tracksuit or baseball cap, there's no need to be on
your guard.

For your info, I visit (in order) Mitre Square, St Botolph's, 29 Aldgate High Street,
Castle Alley, George Yard, Wentworth Street, Goulston Street, Millers Court,
The Ten Bells, Hanbury Street. If I have extra time (rare) I sometimes throw in
Itchy Park or 8 Whites Row in passing as well.

PHILIP

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Veritas19th April 2006, 05:52 PM
Thanks Colin!
I guess calling JtR "The Whitechapel murder" sounds creeper then calling him "The Spitalfields Murderer."

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Veritas19th April 2006, 05:56 PM
Philip
Yeah I remember how much better it was the first two times I went
oin Ripper Walks (1986-87) when there was no more then 30 people each time. In those days Ripper walks were not every day and were more atmospheric. It is hard to feel frightened when you are in a group of over 100 people. The Ripepr tours in many ways have become too popular! What organization do you work for?

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Septic Blue19th April 2006, 06:44 PM
Thanks Philip,

FYI, the Civil Parish was the basic unit for civil administration, until 1890. It typically consisted of one or more ecclesiastical parishes. Christ Church Spitalfields included the ecclesiastical parishes of Christ Church, Commercial Street, and St. Stephen's, Commercial Street. St. Mary Whitechapel included the ecclesiastical parishes of St. Mary's, Whitechapel High Street; St. Jude's, Commercial Street; St. Mark's, St. Mark's Street (behind Leman Street Police Station); and St. Paul's, Dock Street (next door to the Sailor's Home). These ecclesiastical parishes played no role in local government, but they were used in census data, as a means of defining the geography within their respective Civil Parishes.

The Civil Parishes of St. Matthew Bethnal Green and St. Leonard Shoreditch (including Hoxton and Haggerston) were part of the Parliamentary Borough of Hackney, until 1890. The Civil Parishes of Christ Church Spitalfields, St. Mary Whitechapel, All Saints Mile End New Town, St. Dunstan Stepney (including Mile End Old Town, Ratcliff and Bow Common), St. George in the East, St. John of Wapping, St. Paul Shadwell, St. Anne Limehouse, All Saints Poplar (including Millwall, Cubitt Town and Blackwall), Bromley St. Leonard, and St. Mary Stratford Bow (including Old Ford, Stratford and Bow), were all part of the Parliamentary Borough of Tower Hamlets, until 1890. Tower Hamlets also included the Liberty of Norton Folgate, The Old Artillery Ground, Holy Trinity Minories, The Precinct of St. Katharine, The Tower, and a portion of St. Botolph Without Aldgate that extended outside the City, through East Smithfield, down to the Thames.

In 1890, Shoreditch and Bethnal Green became separate Metropolitan Boroughs, as did Poplar (including Bromley, Bow and Stratford) and Stepney (including Spitalfields, Whitechapel, Mile End, Limehouse, Shadwell, Wapping, etc...). By 1900, the newly formed Metropolitan Boroughs were incorporating a system of more loosely defined (but, geographically, more practical) Parish Wards, instead of the older system of Civil Parishes, which tended to make a map resemble a jigsaw puzzle.

As most of us already know, the Metropolitan Boroughs of Stepney, Poplar and Bethnal Green, all merged to form the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, in 1965.

As a side note to all of this, we typically associate the JTR case with Whitechapel. But, only one of the so-called "canonical" victims was murdered there. And, she (Polly Nichols) was murdered in the very northeastern fringes of Whitechapel: So much so, that police jurisdiction for the investigation belonged to "J" Division, Bethnal Green.

If Emma Smith had crossed Wentworth Street, before being attacked, she would have been in Spitalfields, instead of Whitechapel. If Martha Tabram had continued up George Yard (perhaps another 30 feet), and crossed Wentworth Street into George Street, after parting ways with "Pearly Poll", she too, would have been in Spitalfields. Frances Coles was murdered in the very southern fringes of Whitechapel: Had she gone under the railway before being attacked, her murder would have taken place in either St. Botolph Without Aldgate to the southwest, or Wapping, slightly further to the southeast.

I'll have to concede, however, that no matter where one found themselves in the Civil Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, they were likely to be on the "fringes". This was due to its unusual shape: It looked like a handgun, pointing east/northeast, up Whitechapel Road.

OK!!! I've confused everyone!!! Right???

And what does any of this have to do with the "Story of Buck's Row", anyway???

Colin 1669

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Septic Blue19th April 2006, 06:51 PM
You're right, Veritas!!!

"The Spitalfields Murders" doesn't do much to make the blood curdle, does it.

Check out my last post!!! You and I were posting at about the same time.

Colin 1670

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George Hutchinson20th April 2006, 12:46 AM
Thanks for such a detailed answer, Colin. Your fingers must be stumps.

Veritas - I work for both Golden Tours and Discovery Tours. I'm happy to work for any other Ripper company as well that pays me what I'm worth!

PHILIP

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Veritas20th April 2006, 06:49 PM
You're right, Veritas!!!

"The Spitalfields Murders" doesn't do much to make the blood curdle, does it.

Check out my last post!!! You and I were posting at about the same time.

Colin 1670
Thanks Sceptic Blue for clearing it all up for me. Whitechapel Murders resonates a lot more then Spitalfields murders!

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Jimmy18th May 2006, 06:20 PM

Hello all,

Went to Tower Hamlets Local History Library today and found this cutting from the East London Advertiser dated 7/11/80.
2048

It shows what looks like the remains of the cottages, but if you look closely, you'll notice that the garage (best seen in SPE's photo from '67) is still there.

The rubble of the cottages looks pretty fresh - it's falling out over the pavement - so when were they demolished? I've asked this before and have not had much feedback but generally believed that it was in 1972. Winston Ramsey's book has it as ten years later (though it obviously isn't).

Any ideas?

John

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Railway Traffic Inspector26th May 2006, 08:44 PM
An interesting comment appeared on the House of Commons website regarding the proposed Crossrail route - with evidence given by present day tenants of Durward St on the noise and implications of the construction work.

They went into some detail over the history of the area.

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Jimmy27th May 2006, 11:53 AM
Hello RTI

Sounds interesting. Is there a current link to this particular item, or was it a while ago?

Jimmy

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Veritas13th December 2006, 08:56 PM
Sceptic Blue
Thanks for clearing it all up. Still "Whitechapel" sound creepier.

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Jimmy3rd April 2007, 06:27 PM
Hello

I've just subscribed for a month's woth of census stuff (to look up my family history) and as I was idling away on it today, I found this interesting little nugget.

Two witnesses at the Buck's Row murder were Walter Purkiss who lived at Essex Wharf and Emma Green at New Cottage, neither of who heard a thing.

But if you look at the 1881 census, look who lived at New Cottage then.
6869

That looks like 'Walter Boyton Purkiss' if I'm not mistaken...

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