What is a carman?

[Frank]

Hello,

can anyone explain to me what exactly a carman is. I cannot find this word in my edition of the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. An online dictionary gives the explanations 'trolley car-man' and 'railways man' but I am not sure if that is what Charles Cross or Robert Paul were doing.

Thank you for your help,
Frank

[The Grave Maurice]

A carman was a guy who drove a wagon used to transport goods.

[ChrisGeorge]

A carman was a guy who drove a wagon used to transport goods.

We are of course talking in this period about wagons pulled by horses and you might find the following information useful:

"Can and van horses

"Cart horses were used in many trades-railways, breweries, distillers, millers, vestries, carriers and coal merchants being among the most prominent. These heavier horses used were largely Clydesdales and Shires. Lighter horses were used for parcels work by the Post Office, shops (Whiteley's had seventy), the railways and carriers. But the bulk of such horses were used by a whole multitude of businesses. Many of their drivers probably described themselves in their census returns as milkmen or bakers, so the numbers recorded in the censuses as 'carmen' and carters provide no useful clues.

"Many of these horses were jobbed, even down to the butcher's cart and pony, and much of the work was done by contractors. Pickford's and Chaplin & Home, who were the two big 'wharfingers' and railway carriers, worked as agents for a number of railways, especially until the mid-1870s."

From Ralph Turvey, "Horse traction in Victorian London," Journal of Transport History, September 2005.

Chris

[Bob Hinton]

Car man

Since Cross worked for Pickfords, the removal company, he would probably have driven a huge wagon called a van. This was the Victorian answer to today's articulated lorries. They moved at a top speed of 3 miles an hour and ironically killed more people than any other vehicle on the road at the time.

[Nothing to see]

OK. Let me ask a question. Why are so many men who found Jack's victims or were questioned etc referred to as carman (I know carmen plural). Was this the growth industry in Whitechapel 1888?

[Sam Flynn]

I don't think it was a "growth industry" as such. Carmen would have been important to local economies before, and long after 1888. In the 1881 Census, across the whole of London, there were over 29,000 men who gave "carman" as their job - it was a rather common occupation, and they were by no means confined to Whitechapel.

A Government survey of 1887 showed that a carman in the Whitechapel district would earn 22 shillings a week on average, of which an average of 4s 7d would be spent on rent. 38% of East End carmen had experienced at least one period of unemployment during the past year, but this was rather good going for that part of of the world at that time. For example, Whitechapel's labourers, costermongers, seamen and dockers - of which there were plenty - had enjoyed far less luck, employment-wise, during the same period.

[Nothing to see]

I don't think it was a "growth industry" as such. Carmen would have been important to local economies before, and long after 1888. In the 1881 Census, across the whole of London, there were over 29,000 men who gave "carman" as their job - it was a rather common occupation, and they were by no means confined to Whitechapel.

A Government survey of 1887 showed that a carman in the Whitechapel district would earn 22 shillings a week on average, of which an average of 4s 7d would be spent on rent. 38% of East End carmen had experienced at least one period of unemployment during the past year, but this was rather good going for that part of of the world at that time. For example, Whitechapel's labourers, costermongers, seamen and dockers - of which there were plenty - had enjoyed far less luck, employment-wise, during the same period.

Thanks for that info. Can I posit a very tentative idea about Jack . The early murders, and although I've argued against Tabram and I don't think I'm wrong, but for this I'll include her. Tabram, Nicholls, Chapman (not found by carmen but they were on the scene quickly). Reasonably early morning to daylight.

Stride (yes, I count her), Eddowes, Kelly. Very early in the morning.

I just find the carmen on the scene in the earlier murders v none in the latter
interesting.

[Sam Flynn]

Tabram, Nicholls, Chapman (not found by carmen but they were on the scene quickly). Reasonably early morning to daylight.

Chapman's body was, in fact, found by a carman - John Davies - as he prepared to go to work.

I just find the carmen on the scene in the earlier murders v none in the latter interesting.

The thing about carmen was that they would have tended to be up and about early anyway, and most would have been in bed around the 1-2AM slot during which Stride and Eddowes' bodies were discovered, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

[C. F. Leon]

Think of it as a Victorian term for "truck driver". My question: Was there a practical difference between "carman" and "carter"? The feeling that I get is that those calling themselves "carters" usually had those hand-drawn carts, but those are often used by "hawkers" also.

- CFL

[sdreid]

Yes at the time, a wagon driver for goods transportation (as best I can find).

[Pcdunn]

Think of it as a Victorian term for "truck driver". My question: Was there a practical difference between "carman" and "carter"? The feeling that I get is that those calling themselves "carters" usually had those hand-drawn carts, but those are often used by "hawkers" also.

- CFL

I think both "carter" and "carman" refer to drivers of horse-drawn cargo vehicles, though the latter seems more likely to refer to the large cans drawn by heavy horses.

In America, we don't know the term "carman." We would use "carter" or perhaps "teamster" (which survives today in the name of the union for truckers).

I think people who used hand-carts were called "barrow-men" (or "barrow-women) or perhaps "push-cart men" (or women).