1881 - Prostitutes in the East End

[Chris Scott]

Hi John
Course I don't mind:-)
Very useful rearrangement and thanks for posting
Chris

[Roy Corduroy]

It begs the question, with all the prostitutes and unfortunates in the parishes of the East End, how did only these women get classified as such in the census?

Roy

[Stephen Thomas]

Just a guess, Roy, but maybe they were sent for treatment by various organisations. There certainly was a 'refuge' on Bett(s) Street in 1898 but I don't know if it was there in 1881. From the Booth notebooks...

Mayfields Buildings...'the worst place in the subdivision' not a male on the street above school age that has not been convicted. Thieves, prostitutes, rough Cockney Irish.....South down Bett Street....nearly half of the SW side is taken up with the Ratcliffe Highway Mission for Fallen Women. 'Does a lot for women as long as they do not fall again but will then have nothing to say to them'.

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

That's not THE Mary Kelly is it? on Wentworth St

30 yrs old in 1888 minus a modest 5 yrs of age...

Hi Nemo.
Probably.
Mary Ann Kelly born 27th,April,1859.
Christened 22nd.May,1859 at Saint Leonards,Shoreditch.
Mother, Emma.One of a few reasons Mary was known as "fair Emma".Probably a protege of Mary Jane of 26 Palmer's Folly.
Father, John Kelly.
Mary appears to be a compulsive liar.Probably never left the area.
Probably Catherine Eddowe's "step daughter".
Last three canonical victims were blackmailing Jack.Had to go!

[The Grave Maurice]

Yikes! Any chance we could hear Dr Jekyll's view on this?

[Mr.Hyde]

Mr.Hyde

Yikes! Any chance we could hear Dr Jekyll's view on this?

Just checked with him.He agrees completely!

[Roy Corduroy]

Nemo,
If I remember rightly that Mary Kelly was originally spotted some time back by AP and when we checked the entry details for the admission to the infirmary, this Mary Kelly was listed as living in Castle Alley!

Is this the murder victim Mary Kelly? If not, why?

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

No answer.

A quote from the review here on Casebook of Chris Scott's book on Mary Kelly says:

"Scott spends quite some time covering Mary's background, skillfully reviewing the evidence given in police interviews, press reports and inquest testimony. Using these details he offers a few possible identifications, finding the most likely candidate to be a Mary Ann Kelly who had ties to both Carnarvon and Flint. He admits, however, that this is only one of many possible identifications, and far from conclusive."

I didn't read the book, and maybe I have missed an article or thread discussing this, but has the Whitechapel prostitute Mary Kelly in the 1881 census been ruled out as being the murder victim? If so, why?

Roy

[Mr.Hyde]

Hi Roy.
Um,me again.
Lot of this info is incredibly difficult to source.Mind bogglingly time consuming.
I've used C of LDS,as has Chris.
Sometimes it is just updated.One day I have "my" JTR and wife-weeks later a daughter (Mary A. oddly) and a housekeeper turn up.Not same Mary A. I think.

[Sam Flynn]

has the Whitechapel prostitute Mary Kelly in the 1881 census been ruled out as being the murder victim? If so, why?

I'd have thought that, if she'd been born and bred in the area, as the 1881 prostitute Mary Kelly was, we'd know a lot more about her as she'd have almost certainly had more local friends (or even family) who'd have come forward, whether to the police or the press.

As it is, very few came forward at all who claimed to have known her, and the oldest and furthest-flung "friends" that came forward (Mrs Carthy and Mrs Phoenix) only knew her briefly from her Pennington Street days. Furthermore, it seems that they and Barnett - Cockneys all - took at face value her story about coming from Ireland, living in Wales until four years previously etc. This would have been quite a hard story to sell if she spoke in a native Cockney accent herself.

Finally, considering how quickly rumours and legends attached themselves to the Ripper case, it's very surprising indeed that stories, however spurious, from alleged acquaintances or relatives didn't come out of the woodwork in subsequent years. This suggests that she really didn't have that many local connections at all.

[Mr.Hyde]

Some people retain accents-some don't.
Some people pick up accents within a few months-some don't.
That is without being a practiced con artist.

[Sam Flynn]

Some people retain accents-some don't.
Some people pick up accents within a few months-some don't.

Unless she had plastic surgery, it seems reasonable to think that at more of the locals would have known her, if she had indeed grown up in that area. As it was, Barnett and some of her immediate neighbours knew her, one or two remembered her from her Ratcliffe Highway days... and that, it appears, was that. Not even as much as an urban legend emerged after her death that she was any more widely known in Whitechapel. Indeed, the only significant post mortem story relating to Kelly that I can recall was that of Joseph Gorman, and - for what it is worth - that makes her Irish, and locates her in Cleveland Street, W1.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Roy
Apologies for the late reply but I have only just caught up with the recent activity on this thread
The Mary Kelly listed as a patient at the Whitechapel Infirmary in the 1881 census:
Her details from the admissions register are given as follows:
Date of admission: 16 March 1881
Name: Kelly, Mary
Age: 23
Where admitted from: Castle Alley
Condition: Single
Calling: Prostitute
Cause of admission: Syphilis
Religion: Church of England
Date of discharge: 26 April 1881

The age of the census listing agrees as does the "calling" and the only additional info from the census entry is that this Mary kelly is listed as born in Whitechapel.
Of course, regarding the candidacy of this woman to be the Millers Court Kelly, depends on how much or little credence one puts on the evidence of Barnett as this is effectively the only source we have of any background information on Kelly the murder victim. The main points of departure in the details of this woman from those of the Millers Court Kelly are:
Age - MJK is listed as 25 at the time of her death, this Kelly would have been 30
Nationality: MJK is consistently described as Irish, this Kelly is listed as born in Whitechapel
Religion: MJK was buried in a Catholic cemetery, this Kelly is listed as C of E

If all or some of Barnett's account is invented or embellished, either by him or Kelly herself, then we effectively know little if anything about the real background of the Millers Court MJK, and the candidacy of the woman in the Whitechapel Infirmary remains impossible to judge with any degree of certainty
Im attaching the entry for this Mary kelly in the infirmary for reference
regards
Chris

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks Chris and Sam and everyone for the maps and references. re Lady Lake's Grove, from Chaim Bermant -

In his campaign against brothels and prostitution, Charrington rushed in where policemen feared - or were at least reluctant - to tread. Near Mile End Road there were two adjacent lanes known as Lady Lake's Grove and Cottage Row, which contained about a dozen houses between them, all of them brothels. Charrington later described them in a report:

"In none of these houses are there less than ten girls and women carrying on their nefarious trade, and in some of them there are as many as tewnty. The scene on every night of the week ...is one of the unqualified bestiality... Worse than all, an extensive system of procuration has been carried on at some of these houses for a long time past, the agents of Continental houses finding at the 'Grove' their largest and cheapest supply of goods" *

* from Charrington's biography The Great Acceptance, by Guy Thorne, London 1913