Outside of Whitechapel

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Assuming the likely scenario that Liz Stride was killed by someone other than the Ripper, what was Jack doing in and around Mitre Square that night?

Obviously we can only speculate here, but I'm really intrigued by the whole City affair and believe that Eddowes' murder is the most insightful kill of Jack's second to Chapman's (hers being the first because she's the first case in which we know of the Ripper's main interests). Although MJK's likely the last of his victims and Polly's his dead-cert first, their murders don't really tells us anything other than being the beginning and end of Jack's rippings.

I don't think this has had any thorough thought put into it yet, if at all, and figured this could be an interesting topic of discussion/debate.

So, what do you think?

[Ben]

Hi M&P,

It's not a dead-cert that Nichols was his first.

All the best,
Ben

[Mascara & Paranoia]

It is with regard to the rippings. I should've made that clearer, my bad.

As to Jack's first kill, it's almost certain he started with some other person (maybe even a bloke, who knows?) before Nichols. But that's besides the point...

[Ben]

Thanks for clarifying.

In answer to your question, my guess is that the killer visited the Mitre Square locality because he knew (possibly from personal experience) that East End prostitutes would often solicit in the Aldgate area.

All the best,
Ben

[Mascara & Paranoia]

That's what I thought too. As to why he didn't kill in Whitechapel since Chapman and until Kelly (going by the theory that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim), I'm assuming he deemed his usual haunt to be a little too risky as I think the hype for his capture was just starting to seriously kick off around that time (though I think the actual Jack the Ripper name for him didn't become public knowledge until after the Double Event, but I'm not too sure on that little fact). The prostitutes in Whitechapel may have been more aware and/or suspicious of their customers, or at least that's what Jack may have thought (or even tested out himself under the pretences of being a [actual] client).

[caz]

In answer to your question, my guess is that the killer visited the Mitre Square locality because he knew (possibly from personal experience) that East End prostitutes would often solicit in the Aldgate area.

Hi Ben,

I agree (don't faint!).

What I can't see is why East End prostitutes would 'often' solicit there, on the border between Whitechapel and the City of London, if they knew (from personal experience) that men from t'other side of the border who could be 'tempted' by their dubious charms were as rare as hens' teeth, while 99.9% of their customers were to be found deep in the heart of Spitalfields.

Or am I missing something?

Love,

Caz
X

PS And before you start whining "Ooh look she's following me around again", let me just say that I can't help the fact that it's becoming almost impossible to do a routine catching up session these days without bumping into something you have written which just cries out for a response. You may or may not have noticed that I'm currently trying to catch up with some old threads under 'General Discussion'. I am not - repeat - not going out of my way to search for you or your posts.

[halomanuk]

They often wandered into the City area if they were drunk ,as if they were caught by the police then they would only be incarcerated until the station sergeant thought they had sobered up and then they would be released to carry on working..
If they were caught in the Met then it was compulsory for them to stay the whole night in the cell,losing 'business'.

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

I'd imagine the location was merely a busy focal point of sorts, as opposed to somewhere prostitutes visited specifically to procure a better class of client (the were unlikely to have done the latter, for the reason you mention). Since the area was located at a convergence of several arterial thoroughfares, the numbr of potential clients was likely to a greater there than in some dingy alley somewhere.

Best regards,
Ben

[caz]

Good point, Barry.

But that doesn't really alter the fact (assuming it is a fact) that they would often solicit for business on the city border, presumably because it often paid them to do so.

It is often called a myth these days that any man who wasn't part of the vicious semi-criminal scene himself would touch these wretched specimens with a barge pole.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Ben,

So you would at least concede that passing trade was a reality, as opposed to Jack's prospective victims relying almost totally on men who were stuck, just like them, in the worst of slum areas.

That's a start.

Have a good weekend, Ben. I still think you are adorable.

Love,

Caz
X

[Crystal]

Hey Ben....

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

I really meant that the vast majority of the prostitutes' client-base, even at locations that could be described as "focal points", would have been made up of local men from the district.

Have a good weekend yourself!

Best regards,
Ben

Edit Oh dear! I didnt' realise you edited your first post with; "And before you start whining..." Bit rude? Not necessary either, since my response was a perfectly courteous and direct answer to your question.

P.S. Hey Crystal...

[perrymason]

Assuming the likely scenario that Liz Stride was killed by someone other than the Ripper, what was Jack doing in and around Mitre Square that night?

Obviously we can only speculate here, but I'm really intrigued by the whole City affair and believe that Eddowes' murder is the most insightful kill of Jack's second to Chapman's (hers being the first because she's the first case in which we know of the Ripper's main interests).

Hi M & P,

I second the interest in the Mitre Square circumstances, and the belief that Annie Chapman is the quintessential Ripper victim. I believe the coroners summation at Polly Nichols Inquest is spot on....Polly didnt have organs taken likely due to the venue, which was corrected next kill...and was successful, as far as completing the organ theft.

But for Mitre, not only what was Jack doing there, but also what was Kate doing there.

There is nothing in evidence that suggests she was Jack the Ripper's second victim aside from investigative speculation....she may be his sole victim that night,.. like the 3 other solo kill nights attributed to him.

One thing Mitre Square did have going for it as far as safety was concerned that night....a trolley full of coppers all within shouting distance. Harvey, Watkins, Pearce, Marriot, Halse, Long, Morris the night watchman...

And at least 2 just missed seeing the man.

Its like a murder in a jail cell....while surrounded by cops.

Best regards

[caz]

Hi Ben,

Your mention of 'a convergence of several arterial thoroughfares' must have thrown me, because it immediately conjured up the silly idea that passing trade may have made up a reasonable proportion of an East End prostitute's earning potential, and not just a teeny tiny fraction of it. My mistake.

Re my PS, so are you telling me you haven't accused me on several occasions now of deliberately following you around the boards, either for personal reasons (I'm your 'obsessed chick' - very amusing, but hardly polite) or because I'm a 'bored old woman' (again, highly comical but more than 'a bit rude')? It's about time you grew up, stopped showing off and realised that your behaviour has consequences. Since it would be against the casebook rules* to do what you have accused me of, it's not a trivial matter and I reserve the right to ward off yet more hysterical accusations before you can fling them.

Oh and take your hands out of your pockets and stop sniffing.

Love,

Caz
X

[*5. Do not engage in personal vendettas or harassment To wit:
people will disagree, sometimes vehemently, however, if you have a personal distaste
for a particular poster or theory or topic ignore them/it. Do not follow them/it around
the boards, do not engage in never ending commentary after their every post or every time the subject is raised, do not take every opportunity to attack them/it.
6. Do not engage in overt sexual solicitations of other posters on the boards. The boards
are not a pick-up place and people might find it deeply disturbing to have someone
attempt to pick them up on a board devoted to serial killers. Save it for the
conferences.]

[Ben]

because it immediately conjured up the silly idea that passing trade may have made up a reasonable proportion of an East End prostitute's earning potential, and not just a tiny fraction of it

Perhaps not "tiny" in isolation, but the number would certainly have been small in contrast to their majority clientele, which would have comprised local Tower Hamletians.

Re my PS, so are you telling me you haven't accused me on several occasions now of deliberately following you around the boards, either for personal reasons

No, I'm not telling you that.

I'm wondering why you saw fit to introduce hostilities and acrimony to this discussion before I'd even noticed your post, let alone responded to it. I mean, for goodness sake, you accuse me of "whining" before I even show up! Just ask the question nicely, and I'll answer it nicely. It isn't rocket science. Indeed, it was all going according to plan before you made that silly edit. At least wait to see if I accuse you of following me around again before having a pre-emptive go at me on the basis of what you think I might respond with.

Once again we're at unnecessary loggerheards, and here it is entirely at your instigation - fact.