Toffs in Spitalfields

[Sam Flynn]

that doesn't make them aristocracy, let alone aristocrats who swanned into the East End

...let alone places like Commercial Street, Spitalfields, at dead of night.

[Ben]

Absolutely, Gareth.

A stark contrast between a near-deserted street of extremely ill repute and a bustling, rowdy music hall.

[perrymason]

Hello,

Sorry if this repeating a point made already, I havent read every post yet, but considering the association made at the time of the highly successful Jekyll and Hyde at the Lyceum, and the onset and continuance of the Ripper crimes,... and the facts that Sir Henry Irving extended Mansfield the invitation to stage it there...Irving, who's Manager was Bram Stoker, ...might the production pedigree and rave reviews of that production draw toffs into the East End during the Fall of 88?

Best regards.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

might the production pedigree and rave reviews of that production draw toffs into the East End during the Fall of 88?

Probably not, IMO. If anything, it would have provided a deterrent. However, that's not to negate the undoubted effect Jekyll and Hyde and other works of fiction had on the public's conscience, and the very strong probability that they contributed towards the popular myth of Gentleman Jack in top hat and tails, lurking in the fog. They all serve to cement this untenable idea that killers of strangers are invariably brilliant, educated criminal masterminds, as espoused by many a latter-day theorist.

Edit to a recent post: "Ever consider why it was was it suggested that the interlopers "go elsewhere"?"

Cheers,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

considering the association made at the time of the highly successful Jekyll and Hyde at the Lyceum... might the production pedigree and rave reviews of that production draw toffs into the East End during the Fall of 88?

Probably not, Mike, since the Lyceum was - and still is - a West End theatre, some 3 miles away from the westernmost boundary of the East End. One might be forgiven for thinking otherwise, given the wholly groundless involvement in the Ripper story conferred on Mansfield by some writers/film-makers, but an East End theatre it was not.

[perrymason]

Probably not, Mike, since the Lyceum was - and still is - a West End theatre, some 3 miles away from the westernmost boundary of the East End. One might be forgiven for thinking otherwise, given the wholly groundless involvement in the Ripper story conferred on Mansfield by some writers/film-makers, but an East End theatre it was not.

Fair enough Sam and Ben, I didnt know it was 3 miles from the borderline, slightly more than a walking distance I was considering do-able. Course Hutch walked from Romford in an afternoon and evening...so who knows?

Cheers.

[miss marple]

The Lyceum Theatre is in Covent Garden, Mike near the Aldwych. In 1888 it was home to Henry Irving's company. He was the most famous actor in England and the first to be knighted. He had a great acting partnership with Ellen Terry and mounted lavish productions of Shakespeare. He was however deeply conservative and much to the ire of Bernard Shaw would not mount modern plays by Ibsen or Shaw himself.
The Lyceum was the most fashionable and respectable theatre in London.No parade of tarts there as in the Alhambra or Empire. Toffs and their wives and daughters would frequent it.
Many of them were barely aware of the seething mass of humanity three miles away in the East end.
Covent Garden Veg and Flower market was just round the corner till 1977, there were three theatres in close proximity to Covent Garden, Covent Garden Theatre, Drury Lane and the Lyceum, so as we see in Shaw's play Pygmalion, written 1914, toffs could have close encounters with flower girls. The mixture of toffs and the working class encountering each other, due to the proximity of their work, leisure and housing was possible in the West End in a way that was impossible in the East end. The social mix of the west end was much greater from aristocrats to cabmen and market porters.
Miss Marple

[Natalie Severn]

All well and good, Nats - but the People's Palace was some three miles to the east of Spitalfields, in Mile End/Bow.I dare say, but how frequent were these events, and at what time of day were they held? Irrespective of that, I doubt that the attendees - toffish or otherwise - found themselves so roused after the "Amen" chorus that they stayed around after midnight to quench their ardour with a local unfortunate.Well, as you observe, Sims was hardly "rakish" - and, again, his taking a stroll along Whitechapel Road of a Sunday (presumably not in the dark), is no evidence of a fashion for decent people to go a-wenching in the very heart of Spitalfields.

Fabulous information you've unearthed there, though - for which many thanks.

Sam,
I have double checked the location of the People"s Palace,Queen Mary"s College ULU now stands on the site near the Regent"s Canal.It stood in front of "Mile End Workhouse" and Burdett Road -associated with several of the characters that appear in the Whitechapel murders.It is one mile and
a bit from the corner of Commercial St and The Whitechapel Road/or Spitalfields Church.

I am at a loss as to why you and Ben have "redefined" or "redrawn" the area over which the murders and murderous attacks took place in Whitechapel in1888,so that it appears by your book to consist only of "Spitalfields"?
The first murder in the so called "Canon of five" took place close to the Cambridge Heath Road and Mile End Road,viz that of Polly Nichols.
Say you decide to go visit Durward St [Bucks Row]via the Central Line which I would take .You leave Mile End tube station , turn left ,cross Burdett Road walk some two hundred yards along Mile End Road- an extension of Whitechapel Road] to Cambridge Heath Road . Durward Street, is off to your immediate left.It takes about five minutes from the station.
But say you decide to visit the site of the "People"s Palace" -now Queen Mary"s College ULU.You leave Mile End Tube,cross Burdett Road and then Mile End Road and the old " People"s Palace" is right in front of you.Easy Peasy lemon squeezy!

Seriously,I believe Mile End is at least as important as Commercial Street!
Sarah Lewis who gave evidence at Mary Kelly"s inquest, stated she had been accosted and frightened by the strange behaviour of a well dressed, bowler hatted "gentleman " in Bethnal Green Road-Mile End----and states this SAME "gentleman" was chatting up someone else on the night of the murder in -----guess where----Commercial Street.They did get about sometimes you know!


But then we have other important sightings .Emily Marsh was very disturbed by a 6ft male with a black beard,dressed up as a clergyman-[couldnt have been one of Tumblety"s disguises could it?] and an Irish accent ,asking for Mr Lusk"s address,-that was a day before Mr Lusk received his parcel.

Ada Wilson,thought by some to be one of the very first of the Ripper"s victim"s,though not a fatality,answered her door to a well dressed sunburnt,young man in Maidment St Bow---a few hundred yars East of Burdett Road,and was attacked by him with a knife.

Emma Smith was seen on the very night of her death soliciting in Burdett Road---just opposite THE PEOPLE"S PALACE -she was talking to a well dressed man dressed in dark clothes and wearing a white scarf a few hours before her lethal injuries were discovered.The People"s Palace and its well heeled "outsiders"probably drew these women like a magnet.Dont forget Druitt was a supporter of the People"s Palace!

Finally ,it was "Thomas Cutbush" who made a strange comment about the "Mile End "to his arresting police in 1891,"Is this for the Mile End Job?" he asked!

No ,Mile End must not be ruled out of our area of investigation by any means.That would be just absurd.

Regarding Ben"s equally questionable comments on the well off,well heeled, users of the People"s Palace ,who were coming "in droves" from "Outside the area" to" turn the Queen"s Hall into a "Can Can Hall" .This fight went on and on in the East End Advertiser and caused great indignation to those who had helped fund the building of the People"s Palace by charitable donation.It is recorded that Montague Druitt gave one such charity donation -an amount equal to seventy pounds today.Come on Ben,you said they never did venture Down East,yet here is proof that five hundred at a time did,much to the indignation of local people,who couldnt even afford the sixpence they charged for various entrees into their posh functions---let alone their "Can Can"s" !
Whatever way you twist and turn,Sims has got you cornered over this,He came to Whitechapel because he loved the Whitechapel Road!The story of how much he loved it and why is all there in East End Past, Historical publications,available from the Guildhall.Sims,a true toff if ever there was one,was exhiliarated by the bustle of the great thoroughfare "on a SATURDAY NIGHT when the Jewish Sabbath is all over and brightly dressed young jewesses promenade with Oriental colours in their raiment......YOU RARELY SEE A SIGN OF POVERTY OR SLATTERNLINESS AMONG THESE YOUNG WOMEN,MANY OF WHOM ARE ONLY WORKING GIRLS"
by G.Sims- from " HOW THE POOR LIVE".

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
I have double checked the location of the People"s Palace,Queen Mary"s College ULU now stands on the site near the Regent"s Canal.It stood in front of "Mile End Workhouse" and Burdett Road...

I know where it was, Nats - at the Mile End side of the spectrum, a couple of miles at least from Christchurch, Spitalfields.

I am at a loss as to why you and Ben have "redefined" or "redrawn" the area over which the murders and murderous attacks took place in Whitechapel in1888,so that it appears by your book to consist only of "Spitalfields"?

I've redrawn nothing, Nats - it's where others "draw" their definition of the "East End" that's questionable. The bit in which we're interested was only a tiny part of the sprawling land-mass that constituted the East End. Not only that, but it was also one of the dirtiest, roughest and most deprived neighbourhoods within that sprawl.

The salient point is whether well-dressed men made a habit of sallying forth into the "blackest" parts of Spitalfields in search of sex, but I have still seen no evidence at all that supports the idea. If it really isn't attested-to in the record, then we should identify it for the romantic myth that it is, and consign it to the dustbin of Ripperology.

[perrymason]

Miss Marple, thank you very much for that information. In many ways the darkness of the East End is amplified by the existence of such culture and oppulence going on simutaeneouly in greater London. The Industrial Revolution, the arts and culture were making London the most vibrant city anywhere, perhaps the wealthiest, at least as "fabulous" as the continents' Paris, while under the same sodden skies a Calucutta was festering away.

To me the contrasts in that city at that time were so extreme, and quite fascinating. Oddities and Curiousities. Promises of a brighter future mixed with the suffering without hope.

Being geographically challenged as far as the reality of the street scale I am struggling a bit to assess some ingress- egress possibilities, using only footwork as the method of transit.

Thanks for your help.

Best regards.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

I have double checked the location of the People"s Palace,Queen Mary"s College ULU now stands on the site near the Regent"s Canal.It stood in front of "Mile End Workhouse" and Burdett Road -associated with several of the characters that appear in the Whitechapel murders.

Which was geared primarily to the entertainment of the locals in an area where the locals were generally working class poor or "fairly comfortable". Not a geographical issue for me, but then there's no evidence that any toffs visited this establishment anyway, and I'm afraid non-poor outsiders simply fail to qualify on that score for the reasons I mentioned in a recent post.

"I am at a loss as to why you and Ben have "redefined" or "redrawn" the area over which the murders and murderous attacks took place in Whitechapel in1888,so that it appears by your book to consist only of "Spitalfields"?"

No, Gareth and I are both fully aware that murders took place outside of Spitalfields, which is why "Whitechapel" among other locations have been mentioned throughout this thread. If there seemed to be more of a Spitalfields focus, it's because the thread was titled "Toffs in Spitalfields".

"But say you decide to visit the site of the "People"s Palace" -now Queen Mary"s College ULU.You leave Mile End Tube,cross Burdett Road and then Mile End Road and the old " People"s Palace" is right in front of you."

Ah, good. You mean the place that catered mainly for the amusements of the locals, and when outsiders with a little more dosh (NOT TOFFS) popped in on rare occasions, the newspapers were quick to highlight the unusual nature of the occurance (why else would it make headlines?)? As Gareth was kind enough to mention, I can at least attest to some professional experience in noticing the propensity of locals to gravitate towards their "local" theatre.

"Sarah Lewis who gave evidence at Mary Kelly"s inquest, stated she had been accosted and frightened by the strange behaviour of a well dressed, bowler hatted "gentleman ""

No.

I'll double check, but I don't believe he was ever referred to as "well-dressed", and I can tell you for certain that there was never any reference to him wearing a "bowler hat". Beware of reading too much into gentleman, by the way. That doesn't mean "toff" or "educated" or "upper class" or any of the other things you're anxious to read into it. "Gentleman" is often simply a courterous reference to someone in absentia, and is characteristic of the "officialdom" of any court of inquiry. When my parents took me to the local grocer or post-office when I was very young, the man at the counter would often give me a lollypop or sweetie. My mum or dad would always be a pains to remind me to "Say thankyou to the gentleman".

"Emily Marsh was very disturbed by a 6ft male with a black beard,dressed up as a clergyman"

Not a toff either. No evidence that he was opulently attired either. Just an extremely dodgy Irish bloke with a sinister countenance. Did you ever see the press characterisations of Emily Marsh's man? About as far removed from a toff as possible.

"Ada Wilson,thought by some to be one of the very first of the Ripper"s victim"s,though not a fatality,answered her door to a well dressed sunburnt,young man in Maidment St Bow"

Not well-dressed.

Ada Wilson said nothing about the man being well-dressed. He was 5'6, 30 years old with a sunburnt complexion and a wideawake. Sounds like a cross between the Blotchy and Wideawake suspect seen by Lewis, and many many interminable sea miles away from a toff.

"Emma Smith was seen on the very night of her death soliciting in Burdett Road---just opposite THE PEOPLE"S PALACE -she was talking to a well dressed man dressed in dark clothes and wearing a white scarf a few hours before her lethal injuries were discovered."

What's the source for this, and who was the witness? Can't see any reference to any well-dressed men in scarves at the Smith inquest, which should speak volumes.

"Regarding Ben"s equally questionable comments on the well off,well heeled, users of the People"s Palace ,who were coming "in droves" from "Outside the area" to" turn the Queen"s Hall into a "Can Can Hall"

Except there's no evidence that any of these Can-Canners were well-heeled or well off. They were simply outsiders who weren't as poor as the "poorer" denizens of that district, and some of them were "sportsmen".

"Come on Ben,you said they never did venture Down East,yet here is proof that five hundred at a time did,much to the indignation of local people,who couldnt even afford the sixpence they charged for various entrees into their posh functions"

"They" who? Who's "they"? Toffs? Forget it. I know you're hell-bent on this for some reason, but please forget it. They people who went there on that demonstrably rare occasions could avoid the sixpence. Big whoop - that really doesn't make them upper class or remotely grand.

"Whatever way you twist and turn,Sims has got you cornered over this,He came to Whitechapel because he loved the Whitechapel Road!"

Oh boy, am I in trouble. Here comes the big bad Sims to pee on my bonfire. I jest, but seriously, he hasn't cornered anybody anywhere. The fact that a well-known journalist was allegedly fond of a particular busy arterial thoroughfare is hardly tantamount to evidence that toffs (the word is really beginning to rankle with me) visited the district "in their droves", let alone ventured out alone into the worst streets in London dressed in their finery, purely to secure a prostitute.

"YOU RARELY SEE A SIGN OF POVERTY OR SLATTERNLINESS AMONG THESE YOUNG WOMEN,MANY OF WHOM ARE ONLY WORKING GIRLS"

Well, we know him to be definitely and irrefutably wrong when it came to the poverty of prostitutes in that district, so...

[perrymason]

I had a thought regarding Sams last post to Nats.....on the drawing of toffs into the East End...when I was a young salesman and at the top of my game, I hung out with a few other fellas doing similarly well. Nice restaurants, nice vacations, all the good stuff around the house.

But when we used to get liquored up sometimes, we'd go to a bar in the bad parts of Toronto, playing loud rock and roll with bikers and barroom brawls, and get a kick out of meeting people of a different economic reality and bridging the gap with some laughs and goodwill. I hate to think we were slumming, and I dont believe thats what we were doing, it was just a way for us well behaved and controlled sales slaves to roll up the sleeves and shoot some pool with people who could care less about what we did for a living, real down to earth honest folks.

Might Toffs.. after a night seeing a provocative play, or having too much wine with dinner, gather a few friends together in hat and coat and head off to be with people they likely were like before becoming successful? Dont some new wealth folks crave letting their hair down once in a while, like the character Rose in Titanic when she agrees to go down to steerage to see what an Irish party with simple folks is like.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

Here comes the big bad Sims to pee on my bonfire.

To be fair, Sims did have a habit of doing something very similar - hence his poem "It was Christmas Day in the out-house..."

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Give me the bad part of modern Toronto over the bad part of the Victorian East End any day.

I hope you don't think me presumptious when I hazard a guess that you were neither a "toff", nor someone whose appearance would contrast very markedly with your surroundings on that occasion? A Victorian gent had ample opportunities for seeking out "good, honest folk" that wouldn't have entailed a footslog into hell. All he had to do was visit a decent pub on Tottenham Court Road and chat with some nice flower girl, if inclined. As Miss Marple pointed out, there was much more social intergration up West.

The Rose analagy is an interesting one, but she was a fictional character, and it's almost impossible to imagine Astor or Guggenheim surrendering their seats in the mahogany-panelled smoking room on Titanic to go party in steerage!

Cheers,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Fair enough Sam and Ben, I didnt know it was 3 miles from the borderline, slightly more than a walking distance I was considering do-able. Course Hutch walked from Romford in an afternoon and evening...so who knows?

Cheers.

Mike,I will come back to the rest of this tomorrow----its a bit difficult to have any kind of discussion with the gruesome twosome since they refuse to believe anything that goes against their myth about a mad butcher or "Hutch the butch " theory ....but just for you tonight--- I MEASURED the ACTUAL distance from the Aldgate end of Commercial Street to where the People"s Palace was.I used the London A-Z and it gave four and a half inches to the mile.The distance from Commercial Street ,Aldgate end to Queen Mary"s College that was " The People"s Palace",is six and a half inches,therefore the distance is just under a mile and a half.From Christchurch, Spitalfields as the crow flies its just over one mile.

Clearly poor Emma Smith had got wised up to the arrival of over the 500 toffs,dressed to the nines, who arrived Saturday nights in 1888 to do the "Can Can" in the Queens Hall,Mile End, [it had been opened by the Prince of Wales in 1886 and even Queen Victoria had arrived to grace the place in 1887- either she or her son submitted Chrysanthemum blooms for a big flower show in 1887 ] -anyway Emma Smith appears to have cheerfully walked the one and a half miles from her lodging house close to Commercial Street and like many others -and this is for sure ,she would have hoped to do a spot of business with these "well heeled" folk--dont forget-her friend,Margaret Hayes from the lodging house was up there at Mile End too ,having walked the same distance from that lodging house.She saw Emma" chatting "with that "well dressed gentleman in a dark suit and white scarf"just a few hours before she crawled back to her lodgings.The next day Emma walked another mile to Mile End,this time to the Whitechapel Infirmary, supported by two friends.She died a day later.Its a case worth looking at more closely perhaps.Mind the Police did open their file on "THE WHITECHAPEL MURDERS" with Emma"s death,so maybe they realised there was more to it than met the eye.


The Rippers Killing fields stretched from Mile End / East-Polly Nichols [possibly Emma
Smith] to The City of London,Mitre Square /West,to Berner Street [Whitechapel]
/ South to Hanbury Street ,Spitalfields /North