East End Photographs and Drawings

[Cogidubnus]

No Robert...because we returned with my Mother...

Dave

[Paddy Goose]

Charlie Brown's and Garford Street, Limehouse

[Chris Scott]

I'm emphatically NOT THAT OLD!

Well there were horse drawn rag and bone men round well into the sixties and I think the early seventies too...The TV series Robert mentions, "Steptoe and Son" was a 60's comedy sitcom about a pair of such...very funny if you get a chance to watch it...

All the best
(says he through gritted teeth - huh WWll)

Dave

Where I grew up in Surrey the local rag and bone man - complete with horse and cart - still came round the town until into the 60s.
The name has always intrigued me. I know they took almost anything - especially scrap metal - but were universally known as rag and bone men. I presume that is what they originally sought and rags I can understand, being used in paper making etc. But why bones? The only use I ever knew was when they were used in glue making.
With the modern drive for recycling and the special bins from the local council, maybe the rag and bone man is due for a comeback. But what would he (or she) be called now?

[DrHopper]

Hi Dave.

How long were the rag and bone men around? (I guess I assumed they were all gone by WWII. Thanks.)

There was one in South Manchester (UK) in the early 1980s - he had a horse and cart, and drove round the streets shouting "RAGBONE, RAGBONE" loudly and clearly. I have very vivid memories of this!
There are similar guys now, driving round with transit vans with pre-recorded messages playing through loudspeakers, although they all tend nowadays to be Eastern European and just want scrap metal - not much call for bones (although rags are making a comeback, apparently).

[Archaic]

Victorian Uses of Bone

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the interesting information.

Hi Chris, good question about the other uses of bone. Here's an extract from 1868 explaining the many uses of bone:

"The other constituents of the dust-heap are separated by the sifters with the utmost rapidity. Round every hillock, as it is emptied, they congregate with their sieves; and, in a very short space of time, bones, rags, paper, old iron, glass, and broken crockery are eliminated from the mass, and piled in separate heaps. The bones are put to a score of different uses. Several tons are picked weekly out of the metropolitan dust; but, of course, this does not represent the whole of the animal refuse of this kind, but only that taken from cooked meat. After we have discussed the joint at the table, there is still much value remaining in the residual bones. They go immediately to the boiling-houses, where every portion of fat and gelatine they can yield is extracted; the former goes to the soap-maker, the latter is utilized to make the patent gelatine packets now in use for a score of different purposes.

The bones that possess any size and substance are used by the turners, and are converted into the hundreds of knick-knacks for which they are suitable; possibly, good reader, the same bone you may have picked at dinner, re-enters your mouth after many changes in the shape of a toothpick or toothbrush! whilst the smaller pieces are calcined, and form the very toothpowder you use with it.

But the grand destination of the smaller fragments is the earth. Ground very fine, and treated with sulphuric acid, they make the celebrated superphosphate manure, one of the best known fertilizers. Thus the old bone goes to form and nourish new bones. The wealth of England has attracted towards herself the old bones of half of the Continent, not only animal but human, for many an ancient battle-field has been searched for their valuable remains, — thereby enabling us to grow such splendid crops by supplementing the resources of our fields. Tims the threat of the Giant to Jack —

"Let him be live.
Or let him be dead,
I'll grind hid bones to make my bread "—

is no fairy tale after all, but a common verity. Another very important product extracted from bones is phosphorus, a constituent of the brain and nervous system, one of the substances which give us light in the match, and without which we and our households would fare but poorly.

The fat that is saved in the process of boiling goes, as we have said, to make the commoner kind of soap, or is useful to the arts in a hundred ways. What diverse forms of new life await the old bone, as the rag-picker recovers it from the ash-heap! Its substance, in the form of handles of knives, chessmen, paper-knives, &c, mingles with the every-day concerns of life, — its hard work and its enjoyments and intellectual amusements; whilst in its fluid and manurial products yet more astonishing changes attend it the moment it falls into the hands of the manufacturer. Its fatty particles give us cleanliness and purification in the form of the "bar of yellow "; and its phosphorous helps to give us ready illumination. The difficulty we feel in dealing with this seeming rubbish, that we kick out of the way with our foot, is to follow it out into the many diverse forms it assumes upon its resurrection." ( From 'Every Saturday', 1868.)


Well, there you go! Lots of food for thought, pardon the pun. I've handled many bone Victorian-era jackknives, toothbrushes, toothpicks, chess sets, etc., and it never occurred to me that the bone might have come form someone's actual table leftovers, or have been picked up in the street by a "bone-grubber"!

But just imagine using ground bone toothpaste...ugh! It must have worn the enamel right off their teeth too.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Archaic]

Human Bones Used As Crop Fertilizer?

This passage really got me too:

"The wealth of England has attracted towards herself the old bones of half of the Continent, not only animal but human, for many an ancient battle-field has been searched for their valuable remains, — thereby enabling us to grow such splendid crops by supplementing the resources of our fields. "

An archeologist's nightmare! And an utterly revolting concept. I've never heard of the practice of digging up old battlefields for human bones to use in fertilizer. I always thought human grave-sites were respected, particularly national battlefields. I've heard of overcrowded cemeteries packing earlier bones into crypts, but still they were preserved. Has anyone else ever heard of this practice?

It's as bad as apothecaries grinding up Ancient Egyptian mummies to make the "medicinal substance" called [/I]Mummia.[I] Attached is a pic of an 18th C. Mummia jar. Here's an article about it, which by the way states that the ground substance known as 'Mummia' was available in a Merck catalog as late as 1908! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummia

Actually, it sounds like the scavenged human bones fared even less well than the Ancient Egyptian mummies, because instead of being treated as a precious healing substance the old human bones were simply thrown around like manure to serve as crop fertilizer... Wow. I learn something new every day, but sometimes what I learn blows my mind.

Best regards,
Archaic

[jason_c]

This passage really got me too:

"The wealth of England has attracted towards herself the old bones of half of the Continent, not only animal but human, for many an ancient battle-field has been searched for their valuable remains, — thereby enabling us to grow such splendid crops by supplementing the resources of our fields. "

An archeologist's nightmare! And an utterly revolting concept. I've never heard of the practice of digging up old battlefields for human bones to use in fertilizer. I always thought human grave-sites were respected, particularly national battlefields. I've heard of overcrowded cemeteries packing earlier bones into crypts, but still they were preserved. Has anyone else ever heard of this practice?

It's as bad as apothecaries grinding up Ancient Egyptian mummies to make the "medicinal substance" called [/I]Mummia.[I] Attached is a pic of an 18th C. Mummia jar. Here's an article about it, which by the way states that the ground substance known as 'Mummia' was available in a Merck catalog as late as 1908! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummia

Actually, it sounds like the scavenged human bones fared even less well than the Ancient Egyptian mummies, because instead of being treated as a precious healing substance the old human bones were simply thrown around like manure to serve as crop fertilizer... Wow. I learn something new every day, but sometimes what I learn blows my mind.

Best regards,
Archaic

Archaic, if individuals can deliberately shipwreck a vessel for its bounty then I've no doubt people dug up bones for this purpose. Though its the first I've read of it too.

[Archaic]

Use of Human Bones & Mechanical Bone Crusher

Hi Jason.

I found out a little more about the use of human bones as fertilizer. Bones and Bone Meal are a valuable source of phosphates, which is why they're valued as fertilizer. In general, ground up animals bones were used.

What really shocked me was the period in which battlefields were dug up in order to obtain large quantities of human bones for fertilizer. I expected it to be long ago, which would have been bad enough, but according to multiple sources, this happened in the 1800's! Basically at the same time that mummies were being ground up for their medicinal properties.

Attached is a photo of a late 18th C/Early 19th C. mechanical 'Bone Crusher'. Machines like this were used in Victorian Industrial Age; they pulverized dried bones to be used as fertilizer, potash, toothpaste, etc.

This is from Wikipedia: A bone crusher was a device for crushing animal bones. Bones obtained during slaughter < or from rag & bone men > were cleaned, boiled in water and dried for several months. After that, they were suitable for crushing with the special machine into a relatively dry gritty powder which was used as fertilizer. The machine shown in the picture is water-wheel powered. It contains eight S-shaped pairs of cams that raise the crushers alternately and let them fall into material to be crushed. The simple transmission increases the rotation speed of the crusher wheel to 21 rpm from the water wheel speed of about 7 rpm.

So maybe some of the bones pulverized by this 'Bone Crusher' went to make the yummy ground-bone toothpaste our ancestors used?

Best regards,
Archaic

[DrHopper]

Interestingly, the Manchester slum Angel Meadow (arguably the worst place on earth in the mid 1800s) was situated right next to a huge pauper's burial ground of St Michael's flags. 100s of 1000s of people buried in enormous pits, and when it rained, the remains floated to the surface and flooded the low lying areas surrounding it. A popular game was football with skulls, and indeed, people were constantly being prosecuted for harvesting the bones to sell on.
No, amongst the very poor/desperate, there is no rest for the dead.
By the way, Angel Meadow has a fascinating history - it was the place that Engels described as a hell on earth. And continues to be a weird and poverty stricken place to this day (they recently found the remains of woman murdered in the 1960s, and recently archaeologists have been excavating the cellar dwellings). I find it very atmospheric, but actually quite unsettling, despite changing a lot in recent years (regeneration). I may make a post or two on the subject later.

[Archaic]

Angel Meadows

Hi Dr. Hopper.

Thanks so much for sharing that! I had never heard of Angel Meadows, but I looked it up and found some very interesting articles. It seems to have been a real hell-hole. I read that the 'New Burial Ground' was opened in 1787 and used largely to bury the poor. It was closed in 1816, and in the 29 years it was open saw 40,000 burials! Oh my God.

The Guardian article below says that stone flagstones had to be laid down in the 1880's to stop people from selling the bones of dead paupers for fertilizer.
I wonder if Angel Meadows was considered to be even worse than Whitechapel?

BBC Article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/manchest...00/8233388.stm

Unearthing Manchester's Remains of Victorian Slums: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ictorian-slums

Remains of Murdered Woman Found In Angel Meadow:http://www.bbc.co.uk/crimewatch/appe...s_murder.shtml

Article by Oxford Archeology: http://oxfordarch.co.uk/index.php?op...520&Itemid=129

Walking Tour of Angel Meadows with Good Info: http://www.mangeogsoc.org.uk/egm/3_2.pdf

I'd love to see images of the old cemetery if anyone has some.

Thanks and best regards,
Archaic

[DrHopper]

Archaic, you are a star.
I had so much I wanted to say, and was going to show all the articles, but had very little time. You went ahead and did the work for me. Allow me to buy you a pint!
I think Whitechapel is better known, but if I had to choose to live somewhere, I would take it over Angel Meadow anytime. A truly horrendous place to live, and I personally think that it was the worse of the two. The name is ironic, and somehow very unsettling.

My grandfather would often talk about it, and some of the stories that the older folk around here tell of their grandparent's time... Jesus, it is sobering.

I was fortunate enough to stand on the flags (St Michael's Flags, at least a fair portion of them) before they were taken up and grassed over some 15 years ago. It was a weird experience standing there, knowing what was below your feet. But, as I say, and I'm not one for being all 'new age-y', that place has a very unpleasant atmosphere - all the way down to the River Irk, and you go under bridges, along cobbled streets, past poor relief houses and ragged schools, and alongside the flagged area (now a park!).

I shall go down and take some photographs sometime (about time I went back), but it is still a really rather rough part of town. Well worth checking out if you are in the area ever (although Seattle is a long way away!).
If you are interested in LVP Manchester, Angel Meadow, crime and poverty, then I highly recommend "Gangs of Manchester" by Andrew Davies - very interesting reading.

I shall get back to you all soon.

[DrHopper]

I have just checked, and I have only 2 photographs on my hard drive from a walk I did a few years ago, should anyone be interested (It's 250 north of Whitechapel, but is sort of relevant, but if anyone objects, I can start a new thread)

First is looking down the cobbled Aspin Lane toward the ragged school (the red building). The ground slopes sharply here toward the River Irk. This whole place would have been teeming with people and slum dwellings. To the right is the embankment of the old St Michaels Flags - the church long gone.

The second is the same road, looking at the embankment - older wall on the left and newer, brick, on the right. In the centre is a bricked up public water fountain. The horror of the picture (and the fountain) becomes apparent when you realise that behind this retaining wall are the remains of the 40,000 burials Archaic refers to. Horrifying indeed.

[Archaic]

Allow me to buy you a pint!

OK, but you'll have to drink it for me.

Thanks for the kind thank-you's; I'm very glad you brought Angel Meadows to my attention. You're right, the name is ironic and even somewhat ominous when one has an inkling of what happened there.

My grandfather would often talk about it, and some of the stories that the older folk around here tell of their grandparent's time... Jesus, it is sobering.

I find it very sobering when I read about urban ghettos full of what were termed the "Low Irish". With the exception of one forebear who came from Henley-on-Thames in the mid-1800's, all the rest of my ancestors came from Ireland; many from Famine-stricken areas. Thank God they embarked on the difficult 3,000-mile sea voyage to New York and achieved a better life for themselves and their families; they could more easily have ended up in Whitechapel or Angel Meadows!

Thank you very much for the photos. The one of the bricked-up water fountain made me feel rather queasy, like I could almost see what was behind the wall. -Who in God's name would build a a water fountain into a retaining wall holding 40,000 inadequately buried corpses? Wonder how long it took them to figure it out and brick up the fountain?

Thanks again, Dr. Hopper. You widened my knowledge today and I appreciate that.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Bridewell]

Drinking Fountain

The second is the same road, looking at the embankment - older wall on the left and newer, brick, on the right. In the centre is a bricked up public water fountain. The horror of the picture (and the fountain) becomes apparent when you realise that behind this retaining wall are the remains of the 40,000 burials Archaic refers to. Horrifying indeed.

The remains of the drinking fountain have the appearance of lead. I presume that, as the material hasn't been stolen, it's actually something else.

Regards, Bridewell.

[DrHopper]

Hi Bridewell
It's actually a stone canopy, or at least the remains of one - the 'lead' part is a rounded stone cupola standing proud of the wall.