Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[caz]

Morning All,

Maybe we should respect the feelings of those who reject this as a ripper crime scene, and only refer to it as a Whitechapel Murder crime scene.

Also, just for jolly, who among the suspects might actually be lurking in the photo?

I think I did rather well not to let the cat out of the bag, Philip. I didn't even tell Liza and I slept with her after you showed me yours!

Love,

Caz
X

[mac-the-kipper]

This is what I find increasingly strange about this site. Here we have congratulations being heaped upon something that hardly anyone has seen and for all we know could be a fake. I'm only slipping into the ripper upper echelon mindset here but I haven't seen it, don't need to and I've already made my mind up.

Where's Chris with his belligerent 'Answer my question' posts?

For all we know it was taken on a polaroid and bits filled in with a ballpoint.

Has it been tested? Can you prove it's real?

All seems a bit fishy to me.

[George Hutchinson]

Mac - think what you like. I am halfway between laughter and thorough disdain at your opinion but it's the kind of nonsense I have no time for. You know nothing about it at present, so feel free to question authenticity when you have some facts. I'm not Sophie Herfort.

Yep, everything I come across and post is fake. I've done it all in Photoshop.

I am going to bed now as I've just had a 16-hour journey home. Something will be posted in due course, within the next couple of days, to satiate the moaning minnies. If you don't want to wait that long then, as Martin said yesterday morning, "Tough titty".

Why is it that whenever someone comes up with something of genuine worth and progression there will always be those that want to trip them up? I knew this was going to happen. And it seems that all the criticism comes from those who haven't seen it yet. It's not a personal slight.

Let me make this one thing clear again, and if it still goes in one ear and out of the other then you're not worth worrying about :

The reason I have held this photo back is because it WOULD be instantly used everywhere without credit. It happened to Neal and it would happen to me. It is nothing to do with making you wait as part of a game, Norma. It is a case of ensuring that my association with its use is safeguarded before people have the opportunity of spreading it all over the place with my work on it having been lost and it just being another image in the Ripper canon.

To this end, I had an idea on the plane home and got in to find Stephen Ryder had e-mailed me with the same suggestion. Within 48 hours you will all have what you want and I will still be able to ensure that the picture is safe.

If anyone who has SEEN it wants to answer the post above, please do. I have more important things to get on with, like sleeping.

PHILIP

[mac-the-kipper]

Mac - think what you like. I am halfway between laughter and thorough disdain at your opinion but it's the kind of nonsense I have no time for. You know nothing about it at present, so feel free to question authenticity when you have some facts. I'm not Sophie Herfort.

Yep, everything I come across and post is fake. I've done it all in Photoshop.

I am going to bed now as I've just had a 16-hour journey home. Something will be posted in due course, within the next couple of days, to satiate the moaning minnies. If you don't want to wait that long then, as Martin said yesterday morning, "Tough titty".

Why is it that whenever someone comes up with something of genuine worth and progression there will always be those that want to trip them up? I knew this was going to happen. And it seems that all the criticism comes from those who haven't seen it yet. It's not a personal slight.

Let me make this one thing clear again, and if it still goes in one ear and out of the other then you're not worth worrying about :

The reason I have held this photo back is because it WOULD be instantly used everywhere without credit. It happened to Neal and it would happen to me. It is nothing to do with making you wait as part of a game, Norma. It is a case of ensuring that my association with its use is safeguarded before people have the opportunity of spreading it all over the place with my work on it having been lost and it just being another image in the Ripper canon.

To this end, I had an idea on the plane home and got in to find Stephen Ryder had e-mailed me with the same suggestion. Within 48 hours you will all have what you want and I will still be able to ensure that the picture is safe.

If anyone who has SEEN it wants to answer the post above, please do. I have more important things to get on with, like sleeping.

PHILIP

Thank you. I agree with everything you say. I just wish others would do the same.

Regards.

[George Hutchinson]

Mac - I don't understand your stance. I sincerely apologise if I've ranted at you unnecessarily but I don't know what your current angle is here. I thought you were suggesting that I've faked this image for attention?

PHILIP

[Dan Norder]

Philip,

Based upon his other posts on these boards, it looks like mac-the-kipper is trying to claim that if your image is accepted as real without tests and so forth then the Sept. 17th letter must also be treated as real. And perhaps the Maybrick Diary too, for all I know (I think he made some posts in support of that, but I may be mistaken).

He doesn't really understand (or simply wants to ignore) that there's a huge difference between a photo that fits all the known facts and shows up in an old photo album (just like you'd expect from an old photo) and a letter that contradicts all the known facts and shows up mysteriously at an archive in a folder that makes no sense for what it's supposed to be and had never been seen before by people who had gone through those files previously.

[Cap'n Jack]

I think Mac was pulling George's leg in the hope of Dan's head nodding.
I think it worked.

[sdreid]

Hi Philip,

This is your picture; you have the right to toss it in the fireplace if you wish.

It's just that all of us who've been here for a while have been teased and taunted with some reputed knowledge that supposedly can't be revealed until some later date. This is usually followed by some here kissing the person's @$$ which further burns me up. That's just one of those things that gets under my skin.

Have a good week.

[mac-the-kipper]

I think Mac was pulling George's leg in the hope of Dan's head nodding.
I think it worked.

I thank you!

[mac-the-kipper]

For Dan et al

'Why is it that whenever someone comes up with something of genuine worth and progression there will always be those that want to trip them up? I knew this was going to happen. And it seems that all the criticism comes from those who haven't seen it yet. It's not a personal slight.'

[anna]

Hold on a minute here Dan,before people start making large assumptions to do with this picure,and criticising anyone who dares to think the claims made,may not be correct.
Let's get this right....Philip has bought a picture off of EBAY...of all places,and for the grand sum of...wait for it...$4....about two quid to us in the UK.
The seller has put the fact that he is aware of what his item is concened with."The Whitechapel Murders"...but he hasn't researched what it is all about.....so he hasn't twigged that if it is an original,it could make tons of dosh if he put it at a large auction house,like Christies...especially if it is rare..which the auction house would know in an instant in anyway.He also has documentation to back up his claim.
I sell regularly on EBAY,and OK,people do make errors...and had it had been sold to Phil amongst a large batch of pictures as a random item then ok,but out on it's own...with that title?????..and from an EBAY seller!!...Maybe, this is a copy,made from an original.
I didn't want to post this,as Phil is so enthusiastic and excited about his find,but your post to Mac is a little unfair,given the circumstances.
ANNA.

[Dan Norder]

Get real, Mac. You can't judge a photo until you see the photo or a reproduction. You can judge a letter by its text. which has been widely distributed... and the people pointing out that the Sept. 17th letter is an obvious fraud have also seen photographs of it. The idea that someone can't pass judgment on it until they physically see the original in person is just nonsense, especially when the highly respected people who have seen it in person also say it's not genuine.

It's sad that we can't seem to ever have any serious thread here without the regular suspects trying to take them over to promote some completely off topic bit of lunacy.

[Natalie Severn]

I understand Mac"s position actually.All he was saying was that there doesnt seem to be much "parity of acceptance" with regards to all the various recently discovered material allegedly connected to the ripper.I have been surprised at the kind of trashing that has gone over the September 17th letter while all the while it remains in the National Archives as an authentic item from the time.By the way, John didnt instantly reject the 17th letter as I remember,having seen it in the flesh.Indeed John took care to remain neutral and thought it could be genuine for quite some time.
I do though certainly have my own questions on the authenticity of the Sept 17th letter ,just as I do on the disparity of pencil markings between the Swanson Marginalia and the End notes-also making a sudden appearance to the News of the World after a hundred year silence in 1988.
I am not questioning this exciting new find by Philip,by the way,I am really pleased for you Philip-it sounds great and I cant wait to see it, I am just noting differences in its reception and the reception given to other new finds.
Best
Norma

[Kelly]

Re: the letter

The idea that someone can't pass judgment on it until they physically see the original in person is just nonsense, especially when the highly respected people who have seen it in person also say it's not genuine.

Which, I'd like to add, is the exact opposite of the circumstances with the Dutfield's Yard photo. It has been shown to several people in a position to know what they're looking at. The very first thing Philip did was show it to experts in the field. They all agree.

[Dan Norder]

Anna,

Your concerns would be valid in this case if the conception you have about the purchase of this photograph were correct, but it's not. The seller deals in a lot of photos and apparently never took the time to look into this one while putting up a variety of auctions at once. After Philip got it, he knew it would be important to get the original photo album it came from, and so he contacted the dealer and got the album, paying much more than what he had for the single photo once the seller realized that this was important. With the arrival of the photo album it became obvious that this photo was taken as part of a larger trip throughout Europe. Nobody could have faked all this evidence, and the people with knowledge of vintage photography who have seen it do not question any of it. There is simply no grounds to think this is anything but genuine. The provenance is right, the details of the photo match ultra specific genuine historical information that has been confirmed by a group of different experts (clothing, buildings, etc.), and so forth and so on.

And Mac is not arguing that it isn't genuine anyway. Mac made an argument he didn't agree with to try to make an inaccurate comparison to a bit of madness he's been pushing. He doesn't care about this photo at all, he's just hoping to use it as ploy to advance a known hoax letter as genuine.