The Bucks Row Project Summary Report.

[Elamarna]

...at which point Mizen goes "Look at that, the blood appears to be fresh! And it is still running!"

Yes, that is very likely indeed, Steve. More than one paper has it that way around, so that must be true.


Only one report says anything else than it occurred after fetching the ambulance and that one simply leaves the ambulance out of the account.

Of course if the body was moved onto the ambulance by Mizen, as reported, bleeding may start again, which would be fresh and running.


By the way, the coagulation process starts the second the blood leaves a wound. It is led on by a protein called collagene.

This is why a blood puddle can be partially coagulated while the cut person is still bleeding. What is true, and what you may have wished to express, is that there will be fresh blood added all along, and so the blood will be stirred to some extent, preventing coagulation, and the fresh blood will be fluid for some minutes.

Agreed, but of course the wounds of Nichols with both carotids cut would in all probability not clot until flow under pressure had stop, 3-4 minutes.


Steve

[Batman]

Agreed, but of course the wounds of Nichols with both carotids cut would in all probability not clot until flow under pressure had stop, 3-4 minutes.


Steve

Blood exposed to air coagulates within 30 seconds. It's a chemical reaction. There is no way around that without adding chemicals to prevent it (such as purple cap blood vials with EDTA which are used in phlebotomy). Clotting isn't going to help a deeply gashed neck with nearly all the major veins and arteries slashed. The heart is pumping that blood and it will leave the neck like a spray (350ml/s) until the pressure decreases and the hypovolemic shock of organ failure. Everything else after that is leakage from pressure applied to her body.

[Elamarna]

Blood exposed to air coagulates within 30 seconds. It's a chemical reaction. There is no way around that without adding chemicals to prevent it (such as purple cap blood vials with EDTA which are used in phlebotomy). Clotting isn't going to help a deeply gashed neck with nearly all the major veins and arteries slashed. The heart is pumping that blood and it will leave the neck like a spray (350ml/s) until the pressure decreases and the hypovolemic shock of organ failure. Everything else after that is leakage from pressure applied to her body.

Yes, agreed 100%, which is what i said I think.
Of course the blood flow rate is not a precise figure, i use 370 ml/s from a single carotid.
But close enough I think to give a good indication.


Steve

[Fisherman]

Agreed, but of course the wounds of Nichols with both carotids cut would in all probability not clot until flow under pressure had stop, 3-4 minutes.


Steve

Mizen would KNOW quite well that the blood was NOT fresh, not oxygenated and running from a long dead woman. He would not say that the blood appeared fresh, because it would have no meaning to the issue. However, when he informed the inquest that the blood was "still running" and "appearing fresh" as he arrived at the body, he gave evidence that is of the utmost importance and that would have been his aim.
He also pointed out that the blood in the pool under the neck was partially coagulated, something it could only be as the blood still ran into the pool.

The idea that he was commenting on a blood flow led on by lifting Nichols onto the stretcher is preposterous and it does not bode well for your book, Iīm afraid.

The blood in the pool was a miniscule amount and not the result of two carotid arteries pumping it in - arguably because the pressure had been very much diminshed by the initial cuts into the abdomen. The pool blood could therefore start coagulating immediately, more or less. Mizens observation of the partially congealed pool is very much in accordance with how she was still bleeding as he arrived in Bucks Row. The blood had at that stage run from the neck in around five or six or seven minutes, give or take, and accordingly, the blood that had first ended up in the pool had coagulated at that stage.

The pool was subsequently taken away, and at that stage, very close in time to Llewellyns examination, Thain described it as a large clot. Meaning that it was not fluid to any extent at all, least of all from blood having exited the neck as she was lifted onto the stretcher.

You are fighting for a lost cause, believe me. No counting articles will change that. What was written depended on how things were worded, and if the wording was not very clear, mistakes can have been prevalent. Only one version dovetails with what Mizen said, though - and it is a good thing that this Echo version is around to dissolve any mistakes.

I will say no more on this errand until the subject is brought up by somebody who wants to discuss your book. Sadly, I will not buy it until I feel certain that it represent value for money. I would hate to spend money on criticism of the quality outlined by your take on the blood issue. Sorry, but there you are.

[Batman]

The blood in the pool was a miniscule amount and not the result of two carotid arteries pumping it in - arguably because the pressure had been very much diminshed by the initial cuts into the abdomen.

Darkness, as testified to at the inquest, explains plenty of observation problems.

Her hair and clothes absorbed a lot of blood. It was thick with coagulated blood. Unless someone is in airlock, blood outside of the body will coagulate rapidly. The gash so deep that 350ml per second would see that pressure drop just as rapidly as the blood coagulates. Wounds to the abdomen would not have produced much blood at all. Which is the case with all his victims. He isn't going to get much blood on himself mutilating them because most of it is pooling around their head. This is why medical examiners said the killer shouldn't have much blood on them at all. The fact JtR just needed a piece of cloth and a hand wash testifies to this being pre-planned. He would never stab at a pelvis until he knew she had bled out enough. It's part of his MO.

[Elamarna]

Mizen would KNOW quite well that the blood was NOT fresh, not oxygenated and running from a long dead woman.

I see he studied Physiology at school.

He would not say that the blood appeared fresh, because it would have no meaning to the issue. However, when he informed the inquest that the blood was "still running" and "appearing fresh" as he arrived at the body, he gave evidence that is of the utmost importance and that would have been his aim.
He also pointed out that the blood in the pool under the neck was partially coagulated, something it could only be as the blood still ran into the pool.

It is still in the vast majority of reports, If you can find another independent report it would be great, and they make it clear he is commenting after he fetches the ambulance

The idea that he was commenting on a blood flow led on by lifting Nichols onto the stretcher is preposterous and it does not bode well for your book, Iīm afraid.


No it's not, it is exactly what the sources say.



The blood in the pool was a miniscule amount and not the result of two carotid arteries pumping it in - arguably because the pressure had been very much diminshed by the initial cuts into the abdomen. The pool blood could therefore start coagulating immediately, more or less. Mizens observation of the partially congealed pool is very much in accordance with how she was still bleeding as he arrived in Bucks Row. The blood had at that stage run from the neck in around five or six or seven minutes, give or take, and accordingly, the blood that had first ended up in the pool had coagulated at that stage.

The vast majority of blood had gone into her clothing, stop ignoring the evidence just because it does not fit

The pool was subsequently taken away, and at that stage, very close in time to Llewellyns examination, Thain described it as a large clot. Meaning that it was not fluid to any extent at all, least of all from blood having exited the neck as she was lifted onto the stretcher.


Pardon, the pool was taken away? How was that done?
Thain described a large clot, under the body, such does not strengthen your case


You are fighting for a lost cause, believe me. No counting articles will change that. What was written depended on how things were worded, and if the wording was not very clear, mistakes can have been prevalent. Only one version dovetails with what Mizen said, though - and it is a good thing that this Echo version is around to dissolve any mistakes.

The person fighting a lost cause is not I.
And there we go, confirmation bias, "only one version dovetails with what Mizen said"
And that the one which ignore the fetching of the ambulance.



I will say no more on this errand until the subject is brought up by somebody who wants to discuss your book. Sadly, I will not buy it until I feel certain that it represent value for money. I would hate to spend money on criticism of the quality outlined by your take on the blood issue. Sorry, but there you are.

Well it is not possible to evaluate a work if you do not read it is it?

What a shame. And how very predictable

Running "Frit" to quote Margaret Thatcher.


Steve
.

[Elamarna]

Sigh, then please explain how one is meant to read post 23 in this thread? When asked if there was new evidence, yet to be publish you replied

"Yes, that means nothing new"


That seem unequivocal and clear.


Once you explain how that is not compatible with my comment, i will withdraw it.


Steve

Have I on the basis on your post 23 misrepresented you or not?

If so I am very happy to withdraw my claim.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

congrats El and I look forward to reading it!

I do have a concern. Is there any new evidence that you have discovered that points to Mizen lying? Because without any new evidence I find it hard to believe someone can come up with the most likely explanation is he lied.

I mean misremembering is one thing but lying? especially since he did nothing wrong and nothing to "cover his ass" about.


plus if he wanted to lie about less urgency certainly he wouldnt come up with--lech said your wanted by another police officer? That adds to the urgency in my mind.


if he was trying to cover his ass for any perceived lack of urgency-he would just say-they told me there was women in the street drunk. (and leave out the dead part and the other police part).

no the real ass holes are lech and Paul. well just go on to work and leave this dead, drunk or dying woman in the street and if we happen to see a cop well tell them.

[Elamarna]

congrats and I look forward to reading it!

I do have a concern. Is there any new evidence that you have discovered that points to Mizen lying? Because without any new evidence I find it hard to believe someone can come up with the most likely explanation is he lied.


Not new Abby, it's all been staring us in the face so to speak.
I have just tied up several different strands of evidence and reached a POSSIBLE conclusion.
If other disagree no problem, i happily default to misunderstanding.
I do give 5 alternatives.

I mean misremembering is one thing but lying? especially since he did nothing wrong and nothing to "cover his ass" about.


plus if he wanted to lie about less urgency certainly he wouldnt come up with--lech said your wanted by another police officer? That adds to the urgency in my mind.


if he was trying to cover his ass for any perceived lack of urgency-he would just say-they told me there was women in the street drunk. (and leave out the dead part and the other police part).

I do give my reasons in the work

no the real ass holes are lech and Paul. well just go on to work and leave this dead, drunk or dying woman in the street and if we happen to see a cop well tell them.

That is maybe, i don't think Mizen's evidence changed a thing personally. Just muddled the waters to cover himself.



Steve

[packers stem]

Blood exposed to air coagulates within 30 seconds. It's a chemical reaction. There is no way around that without adding chemicals to prevent it (such as purple cap blood vials with EDTA which are used in phlebotomy). Clotting isn't going to help a deeply gashed neck with nearly all the major veins and arteries slashed. The heart is pumping that blood and it will leave the neck like a spray (350ml/s) until the pressure decreases and the hypovolemic shock of organ failure. Everything else after that is leakage from pressure applied to her body.

And there was no sign of 'spray' near any outside victim.
Unless you count six tiny dots in Hanbury Street ...

[packers stem]

Excellent work Steve
How can I get a 'signed' copy of an electronic book ? 😀
Looking forward to it mate

[Phil Carter]

Hello Steve

Excellent indeed.

I think this is one of the most comprehensive lay outs ever made in the genre.
Because I am not a suspectologist, I regard this mountain of information as extremely important imho, for what it is worth.
This should be scrutinised intensely, both for future theorism and of course, error.

Very well done indeed.


Phil

[Fisherman]

Well it is not possible to evaluate a work if you do not read it is it?

What a shame. And how very predictable

Running "Frit" to quote Margaret Thatcher.


Steve
.

Steve, if it turns out that unbiased readers think it is a cracking good read, I will certainly get your book.

Otherwise, as I say, I will find out about how you - for example - have concluded that Mizen was a rotten liar by staying tuned and reading these boards. Itīs quite uncomplicated.
If I find you have good reasons for suspecting Mizen was a rotten egg in this respect, I will arguably part with some dosh and get the book. If I find that you are simply choosing a malicious interpretation over just as likely or more likely benevolent ones, then I will treat myself to a wholesome dinner instead.

It is how I always make my choices. If it seems good, buy it. If not, donīt. Itīs not a given that I buy anything that has Buckīs Row written on the cover, although it will interest me as such. Itīs all about quality, and I nourish the same hope now as I have always done about your book - that it is a really good one, offering good insights and revealing fresh and useful angles. That would definitely make me want it.

Up til then, you will have to try and do the best of how I cannot guarantee that I will buy your opus. Seeing as how you have already implied that my choice is a predictable one, you are not doing half bad, are you?

[John G]

Just out of interest, is it possible to access PC Mizen's discipline record from the archives?

[Elamarna]

Excellent work Steve
How can I get a 'signed' copy of an electronic book ? 😀
Looking forward to it mate

Not aproblem, i just scan a signed sheet into the work, already set up.


Steve