All Roads Lead to Dorset St.,

[Sam Flynn]

Surely the back of a building isn't just its rear wall?

It usually is, though, Gary. Besides, for Prater to describe screams coming from "where the windows [of No 30] looked into Miller's Court", the screamers would had to have been hovering 4 storeys in the air. I also doubt very much that she meant that she "frequently heard such cries coming from the side of next door but three" - and why should she, when she'd heard the cry of "Murder" appear to come from Miller's Court? It's quite clear to me that Prater meant that those cries were heard from back of the house where she lodged, 26 Dorset Street, with her room above the shed as she explicitly stated.

I've seen some folks argue that the room above Kelly's was "above the shed" vertically-speaking, so that's what Prater must have meant. However, most people wouldn't describe such an arrangement that way. The room where I'm writing is above my garage on the Y axis, but the garage is about ten yards away on the X axis; where I'm actually sitting is "above the dining room" in both X and Y coordinates, and that's how I'd describe it. I'd never dream of saying that my room is "above the garage", because my room's physical relationship to the garage carries very little descriptive value. The room "above the garage" is one of my guest bedrooms and, although it's above the dining room on the Y axis, I'd never think of describing it as "above the dining room" for the same reason.

Ditto Prater; when she said her room was "above the shed", the most obvious conclusion is that she meant just that.

Your Mrs P. Seems to be somewhat pedantic about 'backs' and 'looking intos' but when she uses the term 'lodging house' she gets it wrong?

She didn't get it wrong, as Miller's Court was a lodging house, too.

[MrBarnett]

Hello Gary

See my corrected post, and the reason for editing, above. I realised my mistake and would have corrected it straight away, but my train was pulling into the station at the time and I had to get off

Sorry, Gareth I was drafting my response before you posted this.

I don't really have a fixed opinion about this, it's just that the term lodging house seems conclusive to me at the mo.

Can't quite see from the shaded Goad how high the Zuccanis' properties were between 30, DS and MC. If they were lower, then from the side (E) elevation at the rear (back) part of the lodging house you would have been able to look into MC, no?

[MrBarnett]

Gareth,

I'm sure you are familiar with this - you posted it.

[ATTACH]18820[/ATTACH]

How does the front of 30 DS face MC?

Ah, I see you've changed your wording. Surely the back of a building isn't just its rear wall? Your Mrs P. Seems to be somewhat pedantic about 'backs' and 'looking intos' but when she uses the term 'lodging house' she gets it wrong?

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Gary

See my corrected post, and the reason for editing, above. I realised my mistake and would have corrected it straight away, but my train was pulling into the station at the time and I had to get off

[MrBarnett]

The windows weren't described as "overlooking" but "looking into" Miller's Court, and it wouldn't have been the "back" of Number 30 facing MC, but the front. Furthermore, any screams heard coming from that direction would surely have been described as coming from Dorset Street, not "the back of the lodging house", anyway.

Gareth,

I'm sure you are familiar with this - you posted it.



How does the front of 30 DS face MC?

[Sam Flynn]

By 'the lodging house' she meant 4-storied 30, DS whose rear (side) windows would have overlooked Millers Court?

The windows weren't described as "overlooking" but "looking into" Miller's Court, and it wouldn't have been the "back" of Number 30 facing MC, but the side, and anyone trying to "look into" Miller's Court from next-door-but-three would have had a bit of a job on their hands, given the narrowness of Miller's Court. Besides, it would have been decidedly odd if Prater had dismissed cries of "Murder!" on grounds of familiarity with such cries coming from next-door-but-three anyway.

[MrBarnett]

The idea of her living in the room directly above Kelly is a myth I busted some years ago (not everyone agrees, but I'm right ). Prater's room was at the front of the building, as was the shed:

"I live at 20 Room in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room [NB: not "the" room] below" (Daily Telegraph, 13th November 1888)

This is corroborated when Prater described the cry of Murder, adding that she frequently heard "such cries from the back of the lodging house [i.e. McCarthy's Rents] where the windows [NB: not "my" windows] look into Miller's Court"

By 'the lodging house' she meant 4-storied 30, DS whose rear (side) windows would have overlooked Millers Court?

[Sam Flynn]

Furthermore, it seems her idea of the shed was the room below her... which was Kelly's room.

The idea of her living in the room directly above Kelly is a myth I busted some years ago (not everyone agrees, but I'm right ). Prater's room was at the front of the building, as was the shed:

"I live at 20 Room in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room [NB: not "the" room] below" (Daily Telegraph, 13th November 1888)

This is corroborated when Prater described the cry of Murder, adding that she frequently heard "such cries from the back of the lodging house [i.e. McCarthy's Rents] where the windows [NB: not "my" windows] look into Miller's Court"

[Sam Flynn]

The Daily Telegraph also noted that SIX witnesses were taken to view Eddowes and identified her as the woman having slept in a shed off Dorset Street.

Can you point me to the specific report, please? I can't find it.

[Batman]

Having checked, I was wrong about the story turning up in the reportage surrounding the Kelly murder (I would have looked it up earlier, but I was on the move). In fact, the story appears in the Daily Telegraph of 3rd October 1888:

"[Eddowes] had times without number been in so abject a state of destitution as to be compelled to share the nightly refuge, a shed in Dorset-street, of a score or so of houseless waifs, penniless prostitutes like herself"

The rest of my points remain valid. There are doubts about its veracity, and the story is not widely attested - so far, I've only found it in this Telegraph article, which is a rather dramatic editorial piece which doesn't cite its sources. I also note that it doesn't mention the "shed" being the one at 26 Dorset Street and I doubt it could have been, given that (a) it wasn't really a shed; and (b) it was used by McCarthy as his storeroom.

The Daily Telegraph also noted that SIX witnesses were taken to view Eddowes and identified her as the woman having slept in a shed off Dorset Street.

The reporters identified the shed as the front room of 26 Dorset St., (as per my OP).

Prater also called it 'the shed'. Daily Telegraph 13 Nov.

Furthermore, it seems her idea of the shed was the room below her... which was Kelly's room. However, she did say she lived above the shed, not directly above it.

Six women are quite a few witnesses there to dismiss. Plus the corroboration of the what the shed was.

[Sam Flynn]

There is some doubt as to the veracity of the story of Eddowes having lived in a "shed" in Dorset Street. At any rate, the story is not widely attested and only turns up (I think) retrospectively, in connection with the Kelly murder.

Having checked, I was wrong about the story turning up in the reportage surrounding the Kelly murder (I would have looked it up earlier, but I was on the move). In fact, the story appears in the Daily Telegraph of 3rd October 1888:

"[Eddowes] had times without number been in so abject a state of destitution as to be compelled to share the nightly refuge, a shed in Dorset-street, of a score or so of houseless waifs, penniless prostitutes like herself"

The rest of my points remain valid. There are doubts about its veracity, and the story is not widely attested - so far, I've only found it in this Telegraph article, which is a rather dramatic editorial piece which doesn't cite its sources. I also note that it doesn't mention the "shed" being the one at 26 Dorset Street and I doubt it could have been, given that (a) it wasn't really a shed; and (b) it was used by McCarthy as his storeroom.

[MrBarnett]

I don't share that view, much though I love the book.

I'm not convinced, either by the specific claim about Tabram's injury or the general direction of travel of the book to be honest. That said, I have read it several times over with pleasure. TBHM is a bit off-topic, though, unless we want to consider the possible connections between the powers in Dorset Street and the murders.

[Sam Flynn]

If you go along with Tom's argument re Tabram in TBHM, then the location of the wounds is comparable.

I don't share that view, much though I love the book.

[MrBarnett]

I think for Emma Smith and Tabram it makes a good case for stonewalling. Thick is also a very suspicious character.

I think that's the impression the author was hoping to leave in his readers' minds, but it didn't work for me.

There is a whole chapter on the 'Lords of Spitalfields' which contains nothing of any real significance. If you want to get a better understanding of the reach of the lodging house keepers at the time of the Austin murder, my advice would be to research an individual called Billy Maher. Now he really was a 'well known local character'.

[Batman]

I have indeed.

I think for Emma Smith and Tabram it makes a good case for stonewalling. Thick is also a very suspicious character.