All Roads Lead to Dorset St.,

[Sam Flynn]

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

If true, they didn't find anyone called "Jane Kelly", period. What reason had they to look for a "Mary Jane Kelly"? Come to think of it, did they fare any better in finding a "Mary Ann Kelly" in Fashion Street?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

If it was a fake name, which it almost certainly was, then why should they? Assuming the darned "shed" referred to in that one melodramatic newspaper article really existed.

[MrBarnett]

Can't agree with that at all
It's supposition based upon what you feel others would do in her situation whereas we already have Wilkinson's sworn testimony to the contrary
She's only known to have used the name on her return from Maidstone
That's all the evidence there is
The press report just produced about her ID says the same ..... Conway

But you are saying that she didn't use the name prior to that particular trip to Kent. I'm saying the likelihood is that she did. Your certainty is a far wilder supposition than my probability.

Wilkinson didn't say she never used or was ever known by the name Kelly, did he? And if he did, he was wrong, because although we know very little about Eddowes, we do know that she used that name on at least a couple of occasions.

[Batman]

How long before Eddowes was identified?

Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots.

Investigators had no way of knowing for sure that neither of these women existed or that they were both Eddowes at the time.

We have only John Kelly to tell us that.

John Kelly who only realized the murdered women could be his wife when he read about the Mustard tin tickets in the newspapers.

Did you know the same morning as the murder John Kelly claimed to have seen the spot where his own partner had been murdered?

At Mitre Square the entrances were cordoned off, but ‘the sensation-seeking crowds seemed to gather some satisfaction from mere proximity to the spot where the curtain had last been raised on the terrible series of tragedies’. Among those who gathered outside Mitre Square was John Kelly, with whom Catherine Eddowes had lived. He thought Eddowes had stayed overnight with her daughter and wasn’t initially concerned by her absence. As he later explained to a journalist, … on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter’s.

Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts.

He becomes suspicious of her absence on Monday. Then he reads about the pawn ticket names in The Star, 3 October, 1888. Wednesday.

So for several days, they had these tickets, and had not yet formally identified her as Eddowes, although roads are leading them to Dorset St., looking for a Jane Kelly.

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

Apparently, this is not a common name.

All of this smacks of hints that they all knew each other and when a John would ask for their name, they would give a friends name and later tell it as a joke or something to their friends. "Oh Mary, I gave him your name, hahaha", sort of thing. Seems they were using multiple names and this was how they avoided immediate identification by the law, witnesses, etc.

[packers stem]

But there is something to back it up: the fact that unmarried couples of the period frequently 'passed themselves off' as married and used the same surname - not to mention the fact that Kate appears to have actually used the name Kelly on at least two occasions.

No doubt she clung to the fiction that she had married the father of her children among those who didn't know otherwise but knew the reality of her relationship with Kelly, but beyond that? Do you really think that around the hopfield camp fire she would have gone out of her way to insist she wasn't married to the man she was sleeping with?

Can't agree with that at all
It's supposition based upon what you feel others would do in her situation whereas we already have Wilkinson's sworn testimony to the contrary
She's only known to have used the name on her return from Maidstone
That's all the evidence there is
The press report just produced about her ID says the same ..... Conway

[MrBarnett]

As others have said, the policemen recognised the body, but it was John Kelly who put a name to her;

Daily News 4 Oct
"The most important fact brought out yesterday in connection with the Whitechapel murders was the identification of the Mitre-square victim. A man named Kelly, on seeing in the papers an announcement that the letters "T.C." were tattooed upon the woman's left arm, went to the mortuary in Golden-lane, and identified the body as that of a woman commonly called Catherine or Kate Conway, with whom he had lived in Flower and Dean-street, a street in which the Berner-street victim also lived. Kelly's statement has been corroborated by the deceased's sister, and the deputy of a lodging house."

Interesting that it's 'commonly called' rather than simply 'called' or 'named'.

[Joshua Rogan]

Sorry if this is a silly question.

If, when arrested, Eddowes had given her name as "Nothing" and then "Mary Ann Kelly", how do we know the woman in question was actually Eddowes?

Did one of the arresting policemen recognise her body?

As others have said, the policemen recognised the body, but it was John Kelly who put a name to her;

Daily News 4 Oct
"The most important fact brought out yesterday in connection with the Whitechapel murders was the identification of the Mitre-square victim. A man named Kelly, on seeing in the papers an announcement that the letters "T.C." were tattooed upon the woman's left arm, went to the mortuary in Golden-lane, and identified the body as that of a woman commonly called Catherine or Kate Conway, with whom he had lived in Flower and Dean-street, a street in which the Berner-street victim also lived. Kelly's statement has been corroborated by the deceased's sister, and the deputy of a lodging house."

[Batman]

Sorry if this is a silly question.

If, when arrested, Eddowes had given her name as "Nothing" and then "Mary Ann Kelly", how do we know the woman in question was actually Eddowes?

Did one of the arresting policemen recognise her body?

Yes, they all identified her as the woman they had taken to the drunk tank that same day. Apron and all.

[DJA]

Yes.
Robinson,Byfield and Hutt.

https://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

[Azarna]

Sorry if this is a silly question.

If, when arrested, Eddowes had given her name as "Nothing" and then "Mary Ann Kelly", how do we know the woman in question was actually Eddowes?

Did one of the arresting policemen recognise her body?

[MrBarnett]

Incidentally, the reason for listing Alice Kinsey's names was to highlight those other than Kinsey beginning with K...

[MrBarnett]

We have to remember that despite her being with Kelly she still told Wilkinson her name was Conway ..... bought and paid for ....
It was clearly Conway she still clung to on the respectability score
If there was one person at all that she would have told her name was Kelly it would have been the lodging house keeper ..... She didn't
Probably as Conway was the father of her kids and still the one she wished she was associated with .

So yes , with nothing to back it up it's still wild .
Using McKenzie as a comparison doesn't cut it at all , can't tar them all with the same brush

But there is something to back it up: the fact that unmarried couples of the period frequently 'passed themselves off' as married and used the same surname - not to mention the fact that Kate appears to have actually used the name Kelly on at least two occasions.

No doubt she clung to the fiction that she had married the father of her children among those who didn't know otherwise but knew the reality of her relationship with Kelly, but beyond that? Do you really think that around the hopfield camp fire she would have gone out of her way to insist she wasn't married to the man she was sleeping with?

[packers stem]

Wilkinson tells us they 'passed as man and wife'. Passed, not lived, which suggests to me they they may well have presented themselves as Mr and Mrs Kelly in a situation where it was unlikely that anyone would contradict them - when they were hopping for instance. That is certainly speculation, but is hardly 'wild'. It's what unmarried cohabiting couples often did at the time.

It seems Kate may well have pretended to be Conway's wife. And why would that have been? An attempt to cling to a shred of respectability I'd imagine. The same reason she might have for passing herself off as Mrs Kelly.

I'm not sure if you've seen the list of names used by/attributed to Alice McKenzie:

Anderson
Baxter
Bryant
Kell
Kelly
Kelley
Kinsey
Mackenzie
McCormack
McKensey
McKenzie
M'Kenzie
Murrell
Pits
Pitts
Riley
Taylor

I've cheated by adding McCormack because I've never seen that name used for her in print, but I'm pretty sure that there will have been people who knew her only as Alice, the 'wife' of John McCormack.

We have to remember that despite her being with Kelly she still told Wilkinson her name was Conway ..... bought and paid for ....
It was clearly Conway she still clung to on the respectability score
If there was one person at all that she would have told her name was Kelly it would have been the lodging house keeper ..... She didn't
Probably as Conway was the father of her kids and still the one she wished she was associated with .

So yes , with nothing to back it up it's still wild .
Using McKenzie as a comparison doesn't cut it at all , can't tar them all with the same brush

[MrBarnett]

All we have is the word of Wilkinson
So any suggestion that she ever used the name Kelly before hand and that either she lied to Wilkinson or he lied under oath would be wildly speculative

Wilkinson tells us they 'passed as man and wife'. Passed, not lived, which suggests to me they they may well have presented themselves as Mr and Mrs Kelly in a situation where it was unlikely that anyone would contradict them - when they were hopping for instance. That is certainly speculation, but is hardly 'wild'. It's what unmarried cohabiting couples often did at the time.

It seems Kate may well have pretended to be Conway's wife. And why would that have been? An attempt to cling to a shred of respectability I'd imagine. The same reason she might have for passing herself off as Mrs Kelly.

I'm not sure if you've seen the list of names used by/attributed to Alice McKenzie:

Anderson
Baxter
Bryant
Kell
Kelly
Kelley
Kinsey
Mackenzie
McCormack
McKensey
McKenzie
M'Kenzie
Murrell
Pits
Pitts
Riley
Taylor

I've cheated by adding McCormack because I've never seen that name used for her in print, but I'm pretty sure that there will have been people who knew her only as Alice, the 'wife' of John McCormack.

[packers stem]

On one occasion she used Eddowes on another, later occasion Conway 'or Eddowes'. There was an earlier conviction for which I haven't seen the record, but I suspect that was also on the name of Eddowes. As for her use of Kelly only after her return from Kent, how much information do we have about the time between her hooking up with Kelly and going to Kent?

All we have is the word of Wilkinson
So any suggestion that she ever used the name Kelly before hand and that either she lied to Wilkinson or he lied under oath would be wildly speculative

[Batman]

If JtR was looking for Mary Jane Kelly...

... but Kelly pawned his boots, Eddowes taking them to a broker named Smith, who had premises in Church Street, where she pledged them in the name of ‘Jane Kelly’, giving her address as 6 Dorset Street, - Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts.

and if this was the first time JtR came in contact with a possible link to her, then Smith would either be JtR, or someone in the shop JtR, or he has been informed to look out for a Mary Jane Kelly, and to inform JtR. After being informed, JtR would do what? Go after Eddowes? No. He would go to 6 Dorset Street and look around for MJK. So pawning alerting JtR to Mary Kelly here doesn't make sense because Eddowes ends up dead.

At Bishopsgate Eddowes gives her name first as 'Nothing' going in and then after as she is going out as ‘Mary Ann Kelly’ and gave her address as 6 Fashion Street.

Now if JtR learned this there and then, the possibility is that this is the woman he has been looking for. So he murders her. He even chalks down the Juwes will not be blamed for 'Nothing'. Strange that word should appear twice in this story.

However later he learns that she is not Mary Kelly at all but Catherine Eddowes. Someone totally else. However, all is not lost. It is very suspicious that she is using those names and later on he finds out that she was carrying a mustard box with pawn tickets for a Jane Kelly at 6 Dorset St. So he has a few places to go on and one of them doesn't exist, Fashion St. So he is off to Dorset St., to go figure out if Mary Jane Kelly really might be there.

Yet what bothers me about this model is that if this person was seeking MJK, then Dorset St., would be where you would go from day#1 if you had any inkling she was an unfortunate.

Another possibility is that Eddowes was known to JtR as well as Mary Jane Kelly and that JtR was seeing Eddowes and getting her to pretend she was Mary Jane Kelly while with him in some sort of sick game he had going to attack her as MJK. Transference I think it is called. The transfer of feelings about one person to another. Upon which they slashed up Eddowes but felt like they were murdering Kelly.

The question arises why not just go murder Kelly?

I think the answer is twofold. First is that they couldn't because she was never alone and wasn't prostituting. The second is that they still loved her somewhat.

Which would make JtR into a jealous ex-type character maybe? Or someone who wanted her but couldn't have her.