All Roads Lead to Dorset St.,

[Batman]

The name Jane Kelly connected with Dorset St., was even in the paper.

Who believes no one who read the papers on Dorset St., made a connection to Mary Kelly living on Dorset St.?

I would think if anyone is going to be reading about those murders surely it's his potential victims that want to know. The women of the night. The Unfortunates.

This is what they would have read or had read to them...

The body of the woman found in Mitre-square has not been identified. For several hours yesterday, Detective Serjeant Outram, accompanied by another officer, was engaged in making inquiries in the lodging-houses in and around Spitalfields, his object being principally to trace the antecedents of the victim. The pawnbroker's duplicates found near the body bear the dates 31st August and the 28th September. The names given on the tickets were Emily Burrell and Jane Kelly, and the addresses, Dorset-street and White's-row, Whitechapel, both being fictitious. Yesterday afternoon Serjeant Outram accompanied two women and a man from a lodging-house in Spitalfields to the mortuary, one of the former stating her belief that the victim was a Mrs. Kelly. After carefully scrutinising the features for some time, however, they were unable to give a decided opinion on the matter. It may be mentioned that the tattoo marks on the arm are slightly obscured from view unless the arm is almost fully exposed; and further, that the nose and face are hacked about to such an extent as to render recognition almost impossible.

This is what John Kelly likely read in the papers that alerted him to the fact his wife was the Mitre Sq., victim, a square he had visited previously to view the scene of the crime without knowing.

Even though the paper says the names are fictitious, the idea that this didn't even raise someone to think oh we have a Mary Jane Kelly here, seems highly unlikely.

It reads more like something investigators would tell the press so they won't get in their way or hound the wrong people.

[DJA]

For the most part,I reckon they were tracking him.

The first two,on his way home from work.

[Sam Flynn]

Yet Jack the Ripper managed to find one.

He also managed to find a Catherine Eddowes, which is an even rarer name.

(That was tongue in cheek, of course. I don't believe that the Ripper tracked his victims by name, nor that he necessarily knew what their names were until they were identified in the papers.)

[DJA]

Yet Jack the Ripper managed to find one.

[Sam Flynn]

If she just gave her surname as Kelly, there was only one on Dorset St., to our knowledge. Yet she also has managed to provide them with the names Mary and Jane and the surname Kelly in the process.

Not Mary and Jane: "Mary Ann" (a very common combination, as in Mary Ann Nichols, Mary Ann Connelly, etc) and "Jane", but I'll go along with the idea for the sake of light relief.

Policeman to the first of 800 residents, starting at the #6 end of Dorset Street:

"Do you know of a Jane Kelly? No? What about Mary Ann Kelly? No? Ann Mary Kelly? No? Ann Jane Kelly? No? Jane Ann Kelly? Kelly Jane? Ann Jane? No? Ah, I know... what about Polly Kelly? No. Well, it was worth a try. Sorry to have troubled you."

Repeats with a few other people, then gives up the ghost. Meanwhile, similar word-games are being played in Fashion Street, in the hope of finding a "Mary Ann Kelly" there, with equally fruitless results.

[MrBarnett]

Eliza Gold was living at 6 Thrawl Street. She was the sister of Catherine Eddowes. Kate stayed with her while she (Eliza) was sick about 3 to 4 weeks prior to her murder. Thrawl Street was close to Fashion Street. Saying 6 Fashion Street could have been deliberate or a simple mistake.

666? 😱

[MrBarnett]

And the couple of occasions you refer to were when ?
Wilkinson's words are clear

At Bishopsgate nick and when pawning the boots?

Papers covering the inquest refer to her as 'Kelly', don't they?

[jerryd]

Eliza Gold was living at 6 Thrawl Street. She was the sister of Catherine Eddowes. Kate stayed with her while she (Eliza) was sick about 3 to 4 weeks prior to her murder. Thrawl Street was close to Fashion Street. Saying 6 Fashion Street could have been deliberate or a simple mistake.

[Batman]

Hence why they should have been making enquiries in Dorset Street about a Mary Kelly as the name given by Eddowes on release or a Jane Kelly on the pawn ticket which, as Batman quite rightly pointed out , other than Dorset Street , was ALL they had to go on to identify the body for a number of days

Not rocket science

Exactly. Packer's stem was being sarcastic in the last reply. It was literally the hard evidence they had in their hands of names and addresses to go on plus the accounts of the officers that took her into the drunk tank and managed her. If she just gave her surname as Kelly, there was only one on Dorset St., to our knowledge. Yet she also has managed to provide them with the names Mary and Jane and the surname Kelly in the process.

As if someone didn't suggest that it could have been Mary Jane Kelly of Miller's court, when asking around. Plus the other address were wrong so there was no reason to accept a '6' Dorset St., and if it was the shed, then how could they have missed interviewing its occupants (they found six and two identified Eddowes) about a Mary Kelly or Jane Kelly of Dorset St.?

You have to be Inspector Clouseau NOT to learn that Mary Jane Kelly lived in Miller's court on Dorset St., at the time of the Eddowes investigation. A three day process into it and all.

[packers stem]

For a better analogy, try "David Smith" and "John David Smith". Also, we should bear in mind that Dorset Street had a very large, often transitory, population, and people don't usually share their middle names with all and sundry. It's not so easy to track people down under such circumstances.

Hence why they should have been making enquiries in Dorset Street about a Mary Kelly as the name given by Eddowes on release or a Jane Kelly on the pawn ticket which, as Batman quite rightly pointed out , other than Dorset Street , was ALL they had to go on to identify the body for a number of days

Not rocket science

[Sam Flynn]

Brief ripperology lesson

If the police were looking for a
Cyril Gerald Moneypenny of 26 Dorset street
He's not to be found but
Cyril Harold Moneypenny was at 6 Dorset street his existence could be ignored as he's clearly not the same person ��
People wonder why JTR is still a mystery ....

For a better analogy, try "David Smith" and "John David Smith". Also, we should bear in mind that Dorset Street had a very large, often transitory, population, and people don't usually share their middle names with all and sundry. It's not so easy to track people down under such circumstances.

[packers stem]

Brief ripperology lesson

If the police were looking for a
Cyril Gerald Moneypenny of 26 Dorset street
He's not to be found but
Cyril Harold Moneypenny was at 6 Dorset street his existence could be ignored as he's clearly not the same person 😊
People wonder why JTR is still a mystery ....

[packers stem]

He becomes suspicious of her absence on Monday. Then he reads about the pawn ticket names in The Star, 3 October, 1888. Wednesday.

So for several days, they had these tickets, and had not yet formally identified her as Eddowes, although roads are leading them to Dorset St., looking for a Jane Kelly.

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

Apparently, this is not a common name.
.

Slap on the wrist Batman

How could they possibly have had the wherewithal to find someone with a similar name to that found on the ticket or that given by eddowes on her release
Asking people like McCarthy if they knew any women by the name of Mary Ann Kelly seems such a ridiculous idea
I can't believe you even mentioned such a suggestion

Of course had McCarthy been asked he would have said he'd never heard of her ... the middle name makes the name completely different and impossible to coincide of course 😀

[packers stem]

But you are saying that she didn't use the name prior to that particular trip to Kent. I'm saying the likelihood is that she did. Your certainty is a far wilder supposition than my probability.

Wilkinson didn't say she never used or was ever known by the name Kelly, did he? And if he did, he was wrong, because although we know very little about Eddowes, we do know that she used that name on at least a couple of occasions.

And the couple of occasions you refer to were when ?
Wilkinson's words are clear

[MrBarnett]

Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots.

Investigators had no way of knowing for sure that neither of these women existed or that they were both Eddowes at the time.

We have only John Kelly to tell us that.

John Kelly who only realized the murdered women could be his wife when he read about the Mustard tin tickets in the newspapers.

Did you know the same morning as the murder John Kelly claimed to have seen the spot where his own partner had been murdered?

At Mitre Square the entrances were cordoned off, but ‘the sensation-seeking crowds seemed to gather some satisfaction from mere proximity to the spot where the curtain had last been raised on the terrible series of tragedies’. Among those who gathered outside Mitre Square was John Kelly, with whom Catherine Eddowes had lived. He thought Eddowes had stayed overnight with her daughter and wasn’t initially concerned by her absence. As he later explained to a journalist, … on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter’s.

Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts.

He becomes suspicious of her absence on Monday. Then he reads about the pawn ticket names in The Star, 3 October, 1888. Wednesday.

So for several days, they had these tickets, and had not yet formally identified her as Eddowes, although roads are leading them to Dorset St., looking for a Jane Kelly.

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

Apparently, this is not a common name.

All of this smacks of hints that they all knew each other and when a John would ask for their name, they would give a friends name and later tell it as a joke or something to their friends. "Oh Mary, I gave him your name, hahaha", sort of thing. Seems they were using multiple names and this was how they avoided immediate identification by the law, witnesses, etc.

I wonder if they ever gave their full (even fake) names to their customers. It's more likely they have just a forename with perhaps a descriptive add-on such as fair Emma.

In 1893 there was a census taken of the catholic population of the Westminster Diocese (which included the East End). It was commented that many of the prostitutes in the Ratcliff Highway area refused to give their full names, preferring to be known by their street names such as Liverpool Kate, Dynamite Kate and (two years after the death of Frances Coles) Carotty Nell.