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  • Mitre Square simulation of police beats

    Has anyone tried to create a map simulation tracing the two police beats around mitre square.

    If we were to know the time they would have started their beats that day.

    The time it took to complete the beat (which i think ive read somewhere)

    run the simulation and slow it down around the time of the murder. We could ascertain the likely positions of both policemen at the time of the murder (potentially add in the sighting by lewende)

    This could show likely escape route and also hint at whether one of the police men was telling slight porkies about how far they ventured into the square

    just a thought anyways...

  • #2
    Originally posted by SkipToTheEnd View Post
    Has anyone tried to create a map simulation tracing the two police beats around mitre square.

    If we were to know the time they would have started their beats that day.

    The time it took to complete the beat (which i think ive read somewhere)

    run the simulation and slow it down around the time of the murder. We could ascertain the likely positions of both policemen at the time of the murder (potentially add in the sighting by lewende)

    This could show likely escape route and also hint at whether one of the police men was telling slight porkies about how far they ventured into the square

    just a thought anyways...
    Hi Skip,

    I know that hes not doing a computer simulation but Steve (Elemarna) is going to be doing a detailed study and breakdown of events in Mitre Square after hes finished his work on events in Buck’s Row.
    Regards

    Herlock




    “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
    “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
    “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
    “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
    “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      Hi Skip,

      I know that hes not doing a computer simulation but Steve (Elemarna) is going to be doing a detailed study and breakdown of events in Mitre Square after hes finished his work on events in Buck’s Row.
      Somewhee on here are pages which have animations on a map of the beats for mitre square.

      Can anyone remember where
      Steve

      Comment


      • #4
        Found them

        The police officials section.
        Click on watkins and harvey beats are there

        Steve

        Comment


        • #5
          If you want in depth researh on the beats.
          Ripperologist 74 and 75 i think articles by gavin Bromley.

          Steve

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
            If you want in depth researh on the beats.
            Ripperologist 74 and 75 i think articles by gavin Bromley.

            Steve
            Hi Steve
            The only problem with the beats is that he has tried to calculate the time it would take from A-B at different walking speeds, and this in my opinion is unsafe as any walking speed cannot be accurately calculated as being correct. and besides with regards to the police officers in question we do not know if they deviated slightly, or stopped to check property etc, between A-B. Any of those would drastically effect the times between A_B.

            With regards to Mitre Square as you are aware minutes are crucial in the grand scheme of things.

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
              Hi Steve
              The only problem with the beats is that he has tried to calculate the time it would take from A-B at different walking speeds, and this in my opinion is unsafe as any walking speed cannot be accurately calculated as being correct. and besides with regards to the police officers in question we do not know if they deviated slightly, or stopped to check property etc, between A-B. Any of those would drastically effect the times between A_B.

              With regards to Mitre Square as you are aware minutes are crucial in the grand scheme of things.

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              Its certainly a point of debate Trevor over how acurate timings are.
              However he uses the estimated times the officers themselves suggest as his starting point.
              A range of times is given which is quite wide.

              I have done much the same for bucks row, but used an even wider range.
              This gives best possible and worst possible times.
              We need to work with these as best we can.
              The major point i see in favour of the range used here is the beats were actually very short compared tp say Bucks Row.

              I shall be using Gavins figures as a starting point when i move onto Mitre square. But i may well develope gavins suggestions further, i do not know yet.
              I have some ideas that may alay some of your concerns about lack of time.
              However i gather you have more coming yourself so i will wait until this is released until we probably lock horns as usual. But you never know we may agree on somethings.

              We will see how things look later in the year i hope


              Steve

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by SkipToTheEnd View Post
                Has anyone tried to create a map simulation tracing the two police beats around mitre square.

                If we were to know the time they would have started their beats that day.

                The time it took to complete the beat (which i think ive read somewhere)

                run the simulation and slow it down around the time of the murder. We could ascertain the likely positions of both policemen at the time of the murder (potentially add in the sighting by lewende)

                This could show likely escape route and also hint at whether one of the police men was telling slight porkies about how far they ventured into the square

                just a thought anyways...
                Hi SkiptotheEnd,

                I feel a lot of it relies on if the driving rain that night delayed the beat officers at all? It was raining hard enough at 1:30 to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club for an extra four or five minutes.

                In PC Harvey's testimony he states he was in Aldgate returning toward Duke Street when he heard George Morris blow his whistle. Based on what we know of Harvey's beat, that would likely place him between Mitre Street and Duke Street on Aldgate at murder time.

                Watkins had left the square (prior to the murder) aprrox. 1:30. His beat took him between 10-14 minutes. That would place him very near the square at the estimated time of the murder (1:44 or 1:45ish). At 10 minutes he would have made the round and would have been leaving Mitre Square heading up King Street into St James Place. At 14 minutes he would have been in the square around the time of the murder.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                  Hi SkiptotheEnd,

                  I feel a lot of it relies on if the driving rain that night delayed the beat officers at all? It was raining hard enough at 1:30 to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club for an extra four or five minutes.
                  Jerryd makes an excellent point here. If the rain was heavy enough to delay the departure of Lawende and his companions it almost certainly had a comparable effect on others in the area. New officers were always reminded by the old sweats that "a good policeman never gets wet". Harvey and Watkin had the added advantage of working the same beats on a regular basis. I woudn't be at all surprised to learn that Watkin had sheltered for several minutes until the worst of the rain had gone; St James' Passage leading off from Mitre Square has to be a likely candidate location.
                  "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                    Jerryd makes an excellent point here. If the rain was heavy enough to delay the departure of Lawende and his companions it almost certainly had a comparable effect on others in the area.
                    Hi Bridewell,

                    Including Eddowes and her killer.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                      Hi SkiptotheEnd,

                      I feel a lot of it relies on if the driving rain that night delayed the beat officers at all? It was raining hard enough at 1:30 to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club for an extra four or five minutes.

                      In PC Harvey's testimony he states he was in Aldgate returning toward Duke Street when he heard George Morris blow his whistle. Based on what we know of Harvey's beat, that would likely place him between Mitre Street and Duke Street on Aldgate at murder time.

                      Watkins had left the square (prior to the murder) aprrox. 1:30. His beat took him between 10-14 minutes. That would place him very near the square at the estimated time of the murder (1:44 or 1:45ish). At 10 minutes he would have made the round and would have been leaving Mitre Square heading up King Street into St James Place. At 14 minutes he would have been in the square around the time of the murder.

                      Hi Jerry,

                      The rain may very well have an effect on watkins beat, i am assuming harvey arrives at Church passage after the rain stops.

                      This may well mean that his timing for his previous visit may not be 100% accurate.

                      Such would put a whole new perspective on events.


                      Steve

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                        Hi Jerry,

                        The rain may very well have an effect on watkins beat, i am assuming harvey arrives at Church passage after the rain stops.

                        This may well mean that his timing for his previous visit may not be 100% accurate.

                        Such would put a whole new perspective on events.


                        Steve
                        Thanks Steve,

                        Harvey says he arrived at Chuch Passage about 1:42. It appears the rain subsided shortly after 1:30, so, yes, we can assume the rain was at least tolerable at that point. After leaving Church Passage PC Harvey would have passed the Post Office clock, made a right turn on Aldgate High Street and headed down to Leadenhall where he made an about face and headed back up Aldgate High to Houndsditch. It was during this short span of time that he heard the whistle from George Morris. He states it was when he was approaching Duke Street as I show in this map. (approx, blue circle) The yellow circle is the PO and the dotted line is his intended beat if he had not heard the whistle.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                          I feel a lot of it relies on if the driving rain that night delayed the beat officers at all? It was raining hard enough at 1:30 to keep Lawende and Company from leaving the Imperial Club for an extra four or five minutes.
                          Hi Jerry,
                          Harvey says he had previously passed the Post Office clock at 1:28, so presumably this was when it was still raining (assuming the rain wasn't just a brief passing shower which started just as Lawende et al were about to leave the club)

                          In PC Harvey's testimony he states he was in Aldgate returning toward Duke Street when he heard George Morris blow his whistle. Based on what we know of Harvey's beat, that would likely place him between Mitre Street and Duke Street on Aldgate at murder time.
                          Agreed. He was about to pass the PO again, which would make that lap of his beat approx 17-18 mins

                          Watkins had left the square (prior to the murder) aprrox. 1:30. His beat took him between 10-14 minutes. That would place him very near the square at the estimated time of the murder (1:44 or 1:45ish). At 10 minutes he would have made the round and would have been leaving Mitre Square heading up King Street into St James Place. At 14 minutes he would have been in the square around the time of the murder.
                          I'm not sure what you mean here... wasn't 1:44-45 the time the murder was discovered, rather than the time it occurred? We know Watkins was in the square at this time, as he discovered Kate's body.
                          If Watkins had earlier patrolled the square around 1:30 it would have been raining, so he might perhaps have sheltered a couple of minutes in St James' Passage, as Bridewell suggests, but would presumably have resumed his round and left the square back into Mitre Street just as Lawende left the club and saw Eddowes loitering at the entrance to Church Passage.

                          Incidentally, is there any mention of rain at the Berner Street murder site at this time? It was only a mile or so away, didn't the rain stop there by 11:30?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                            Hi Jerry,
                            Harvey says he had previously passed the Post Office clock at 1:28, so presumably this was when it was still raining (assuming the rain wasn't just a brief passing shower which started just as Lawende et al were about to leave the club)



                            Agreed. He was about to pass the PO again, which would make that lap of his beat approx 17-18 mins



                            I'm not sure what you mean here... wasn't 1:44-45 the time the murder was discovered, rather than the time it occurred? We know Watkins was in the square at this time, as he discovered Kate's body.
                            If Watkins had earlier patrolled the square around 1:30 it would have been raining, so he might perhaps have sheltered a couple of minutes in St James' Passage, as Bridewell suggests, but would presumably have resumed his round and left the square back into Mitre Street just as Lawende left the club and saw Eddowes loitering at the entrance to Church Passage.

                            Incidentally, is there any mention of rain at the Berner Street murder site at this time? It was only a mile or so away, didn't the rain stop there by 11:30?
                            Hi Joshua,

                            I was trying to make a point where Watkins should have been based on his own testimony.

                            That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning

                            then:

                            [Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.
                            [Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.
                            [Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.
                            [Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.
                            [Coroner] Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them? - No.


                            So what happened at 1:00 that he wasn't continually patrolling his beat? Rain? He makes no mention of the rain. Nor does anyone else involved except Lawende and Company. No mention of Kate having wet clothing, no puddles in Mitre Square.

                            Joseph Lawende-I was at the Imperial Club in the company of Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. It was raining and we could not leave the premises.

                            That's a pretty hard rain if they "could not leave the premises".

                            By what did you fix the time? - By seeing the club clock and my own watch. It was five minutes after the half hour when we came out, and to the best of my belief it was twenty five to two when we saw these persons.

                            So at 1:35 Lawende sees the couple in the Passage. If it was raining hard, where did they come from? We assume by Watkins testimony that he had left the square by now. He stated he had no disturbances so his beat should have taken "twelve or fourteen minutes". That puts him back in the square roughly between 1:42-1:44 ( I know Victorian timing is an issue but several were using clocks and watches on this night). He was approaching from Mitre Street so if the killer left that way, he surely would have been seen by the beat officer, Watkins? So from 1:35 to 1:44 was the timing for the couple to walk into the square and murder Kate. For the killer to add extra cuts and take a kidney in the essence of time was foolish unless he knew when the PC would return to the square.

                            Now for Morris.

                            At half-past 1 o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley and Tongue's, tea merchants, named George James Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in 10 minutes' time, when he would then be round again. Having made the circuit of the square, Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to 2.

                            A juror: How long had your door been ajar before Watkins knocked? - Only about two minutes, while I was sweeping.

                            Using the timing of all this, the door was open at 1:43 or so. 1:35 to 1:43 or about 8 minutes for the killer to complete his work and escape. That's IF the couple seen by Lawende included Kate and IF they got to the Square immediately after the sighting by Lawende.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                              Hi Joshua,

                              I was trying to make a point where Watkins should have been based on his own testimony.
                              Thanks JD, gotcha. Did Watkins make any reference to seeing a clock or checking the time on his rounds, or was he backdating the time he was last in the square from when he found the body (when we can assume he would have taken a note of the time) basee on his average lap time of 12-14 minutes?

                              That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning
                              R
                              then:

                              [Coroner] Had anything excited your attention during those hours? - No.
                              [Coroner] Or any person? - No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.
                              [Coroner] At half-past one did anything excite your attention? - No.
                              [Coroner] Did you see anyone about? - No.
                              [Coroner] Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them? - No.


                              So what happened at 1:00 that he wasn't continually patrolling his beat?
                              Some reports say from 10:00 to 1:30, so I would think the 1:00 reference is just a misreporting.

                              Rain? He makes no mention of the rain. Nor does anyone else involved except Lawende and Company. No mention of Kate having wet clothing, no puddles in Mitre Square.
                              Mmm, strange that. But witnesses weren't there to set the atmosphere, so presumably details such as the weather weren't mentioned without reason, such as delaying a departure. Will have to scour the reports for mentions of rain.

                              Joseph Lawende-I was at the Imperial Club in the company of Mr. Joseph Levy and Mr. Harry Harris. It was raining and we could not leave the premises.

                              That's a pretty hard rain if they "could not leave the premises".
                              Possibly. Or they just didn't want to get wet. I'd wait a couple of minutes if it looked like it might blow over soon.

                              By what did you fix the time? - By seeing the club clock and my own watch. It was five minutes after the half hour when we came out, and to the best of my belief it was twenty five to two when we saw these persons.

                              So at 1:35 Lawende sees the couple in the Passage. If it was raining hard, where did they come from? We assume by Watkins testimony that he had left the square by now. He stated he had no disturbances so his beat should have taken "twelve or fourteen minutes". That puts him back in the square roughly between 1:42-1:44 ( I know Victorian timing is an issue but several were using clocks and watches on this night). He was approaching from Mitre Street so if the killer left that way, he surely would have been seen by the beat officer, Watkins? So from 1:35 to 1:44 was the timing for the couple to walk into the square and murder Kate. For the killer to add extra cuts and take a kidney in the essence of time was foolish unless he knew when the PC would return to the square.
                              Hmm. Lawende references two time sources so that at least should be fairly accurate, you'd think.
                              Harvey estimated he patrolled Church Passage at 1:42, and Morris opened his door about that time too. So I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of these are what led the killer to exit the scene. I suspect sound would have been Jack's primary warning of approach, rather than knowing the exact timing of beats, and Harvey's footsteps echoing along the passage toward him may have signalled it was time to scram. Watkins, I estimate, would have been around Leadenhall St at the time, so out of sight of anyone leaving the square via Mitre Street.

                              Now for Morris.

                              At half-past 1 o'clock Watkins handed a can of tea to the watchman at Messrs. Kearley and Tongue's, tea merchants, named George James Morris, a naval pensioner, telling him to make it hot in 10 minutes' time, when he would then be round again. Having made the circuit of the square, Watkins left, paraded his beat, and returned at a quarter to 2.

                              A juror: How long had your door been ajar before Watkins knocked? - Only about two minutes, while I was sweeping.
                              I know I've heard the tale of the teapot before, but do you have the source? It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the inquest reports. Is it just a bit of press colour? You'd think a tea warehouse would be able supply a cup of tea, rather than the PC having to provide his own! And according to the Daily News at least, Morris was specifically asked if he'd seen Watkins before [the body was discovered] on that night and he said no. Also, wasn't Morris an ex Met PC, rather than ex- navy? I suppose he could have been both, though.

                              Using the timing of all this, the door was open at 1:43 or so. 1:35 to 1:43 or about 8 minutes for the killer to complete his work and escape. That's IF the couple seen by Lawende included Kate and IF they got to the Square immediately after the sighting by Lawende.
                              Mmm, sounds about right. But there's a lot of "if"s involved all round!

                              Comment

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