Blood oozing

[Joshua Rogan]

While I always naturally respect the arguments on JtR forums, it was nevertheless the opinion of Dr Bond that "no doubt the wound in the throat would cause almost immediate death" and of Dr Phillips that "death almost immediately followed the incision of the neck".

I've heard it suggested that, if the throat was cut right round (thus severing both vagus nerves) then the heart would stop beating immediately. Which may explain the doctors' statements. And affect the blood loss. If it's true, that is.... can any medical types confirm?

[kjab3112]

1. What data have you performed regression on exactly?

2. What exactly is "data within the sources given"?

3. Do you have a random sample or not?

4. What independent variables are in your model?

Pierre

1. To develop the scatter I paired known mean values of base blood flows and then derived further data points on the mean reductions in peer reviewed published literature with the fixed points of blood loss given in each paper

2. As stated. These sources refer to separate studies data and how blood loss (either genuine or simulated) reduced blood flow in those specific arteries. Each study usually used a different amount of blood loss, I simply collated them to perform a scatter plot and subsequent regression using OpenOffice calc.

3. These are all means (with available standard deviations) which are based on a sample. It is not ethical to perform a true randomised control study so these cases are either a population mean or single case controlled samples. They are old papers when Doppler measurement of vessel flow was being devised and are often cited by 100+ later papers.

4. For independent variables I have assumed that blood loss is 100% of flow through that vessel. In physiological response to bleeding, there are vessel level changes that occur which act to reduce blood flow from that cut vessel. I have however ignored venous back bleeding from the organ which has been denuded of its blood supply. The reasoning for this is that once arterial flow has ceased, venous outflow from any capillary vessel is minimal.
I have assumed minimal blood loss from capillary skin level bleeding, this is due to the magnitude differences involved so can be reasonably ignored when looking at a short period of bleeding.

Hope that resolves your questions

Paul

[jerryd]

In the case of Alice McKenzie, I personally feel she was murdered later than what we have been told. Witnesses such as Isaac Lewis Jacobs and PC Andrews describe the wounds with a strong flow of blood when they saw her. They use the terms "running" (Andrews) and running very fast, spurting and gushing (Jacobs). In fact several papers after interviewing Jacobs stated his testimony indicated that the heart was still beating when he saw her. He (Jacobs) would have arrived at the scene approximately between 12:52 and 12:55 a.m. If Jacobs is right and blood was spurting, that would indicate the heart was still beating. That would also indicate PC Andrews would have witnessed an even greater event two minutes earlier regarding the flow of blood. When Sgt, Herwin/Irwin arrived at 12:55ish he stated "she must have been killed a few minutes before".

[David Orsam]

I very much doubt that death would have been instantaneous: see, for example, http://realfighting.com/unconsciousness_and_death.php

Where does the word "instantaneous" come from?

Are "almost immediately" and "instantaneous" synonyms then?

[kjab3112]

I've heard it suggested that, if the throat was cut right round (thus severing both vagus nerves) then the heart would stop beating immediately. Which may explain the doctors' statements. And affect the blood loss. If it's true, that is.... can any medical types confirm?

Recorded cases of strangulation in hanging refute this. The carotid vessels are occluded but the central heart-lung circulation continues. What you are referring to is inevitable death (currently) from decapitation leading to loss of cerebral blood supply (which is true after approximately ten seconds if not restored), compared to cardiac death (heart stops beating)

Paul

[David Orsam]

When Sgt, Herwin/Irwin arrived at 12:55ish he stated "she must have been killed a few minutes before".

Still, 12.55 to 1:10 = 15 minutes.

[kjab3112]

Where does the word "instantaneous" come from?

Are "almost immediately" and "instantaneous" synonyms then?

We are referring to medical men operating in a time before resuscitation. I have personally seen a girl live after one hour of having no pulse (I.e. dead). The only true immediate causes of death are even then not instantaneous. If the heart starts to fibrillate or goes into standstill, the brain doesn't lose consciousness for about ten seconds (you rarely will remember events though). If I then shock your heart back into normal rhythm or start chest compressions or some other form of pump is attached, you may very well wake up. If I do nothing you're unconscious in ten seconds and if continue to do nothing, death is inevitable.

Paul

[David Orsam]

In the case of Alice McKenzie, I personally feel she was murdered later than what we have been told.

Do you actually mean "died" later than what we have been told?

Here is the evidence on timings from the inquest:

PC Joseph Allen: Was told by Sgt Badlam at "five minutes to 1" that a woman had been found murdered in Castle Alley.

PC Andrews: "About ten minutes to 1" was at corner of Old Castle Street leading into Castle Alley then proceeded up Castle Alley, trying some doors in the alley, when he noticed a woman lying on the pavement.

Isaac Jacobs: Left his home in Newcastle Place, which overlooked Castle Street, at "about ten minutes to 1" and when he arrived at "Cocoanut Place" was told by a constable (Andrews) that a murder had been committed.

PS Badham: Was in Castle Street at "about 12 minutes to 1" then walked to Pell Lane where he heard two blows from a whistle indicating that the body had been found.

PC Neve: Met Sergeant Badham in Commercial street at "about 5 minutes to 1" when he was told that a murder had been committed.

Catherine Hughes, local resident, said that it rained at 12.45. Inspector Reid said he was certain it was not raining at 12.30. The pavement beneath the body was dry.

[Elamarna]

Still, 12.55 to 1:10 = 15 minutes.

That is not necessarily a problem. Only one carotid cut, not two. Wound is more of a stab than cut, wound not gaping open, so there is some restriction on the blood loss.

And of course how accurate is Phillips time of arrival. Equally important how synchronized are the time of the police and Phillips.

Steve

[David Orsam]

We are referring to medical men operating in a time before resuscitation.

But they spoke English though didn't they Paul?

Do you think they regarded "almost immediately" as synonymous with "instantaneous"?

[David Orsam]

wound not gaping open, so there is some restriction on the blood loss.

Are you suggesting that there is any evidence that the neck wound in the case of Nichols was "gaping open"?

[jerryd]

Do you actually mean "died" later than what we have been told?

Here is the evidence on timings from the inquest:

PC Joseph Allen: Was told by Sgt Badlam at "five minutes to 1" that a woman had been found murdered in Castle Alley.

PC Andrews: "About ten minutes to 1" was at corner of Old Castle Street leading into Castle Alley then proceeded up Castle Alley, trying some doors in the alley, when he noticed a woman lying on the pavement.

Isaac Jacobs: Left his home in Newcastle Place, which overlooked Castle Street, at "about ten minutes to 1" and when he arrived at "Cocoanut Place" was told by a constable (Andrews) that a murder had been committed.

PS Badham: Was in Castle Street at "about 12 minutes to 1" then walked to Pell Lane where he heard two blows from a whistle indicating that the body had been found.

PC Neve: Met Sergeant Badham in Commercial street at "about 5 minutes to 1" when he was told that a murder had been committed.

Catherine Hughes, local resident, said that it rained at 12.45. Inspector Reid said he was certain it was not raining at 12.30. The pavement beneath the body was dry.

David,

No, I meant she was attacked, had her neck cut, and died later than 12:40. I'd be happy to discuss my reasoning, but I don't want to detract from this thread.

[Elamarna]

Are you suggesting that there is any evidence that the neck wound in the case of Nichols was "gaping open"?

Let's be very careful about the actual words here. The Mackenzie wound is much smaller than the one to Nichols.

In the Mackenzie case the neck is not cut all round and no-one would I think call it "gaping."

In the Nichols case, some have in the past call it "gaping", The wound certainly encircled most of the neck. So the possability must exist that it may have been.
However without a clear indication as to the exact postition and angle of the head to the neck; we do not know if it was "gaping" or not. It's just a possability.
The evidence certainly does not suggest it is what was seen.

It was certainly a more open wound than that to Mackenzie.

Of course what is "gaping open" to one may just be a large deep wound to another.


Steve

[kjab3112]

But they spoke English though didn't they Paul?

Do you think they regarded "almost immediately" as synonymous with "instantaneous"?

I would believe they meant "instantaneous" as in a judicial hanging timeframe, which those working with the police would certainly have acquaintance. I.e. Unconscious in a few seconds, some twitching for a couple of minutes, no pulse or breathing by the time they've been cut down and being examined.

Paul

[jerryd]

Let's be very careful about the actual words here. The Mackenzie wound is much smaller than the one to Nichols.

In the Mackenzie case the neck is not cut all round and no-one would I think call it "gaping."

In the Nichols case, some have in the past call it "gaping", The wound certainly encircled most of the neck. So the possability must exist that it may have been.
However without a clear indication as to the exact postition and angle of the head to the neck; we do not know if it was "gaping" or not. It's just a possability.
The evidence certainly does not suggest it is what was seen.

It was certainly a more open wound than that to Mackenzie.

Of course what is "gaping open" to one may just be a large deep wound to another.


Steve

Hi Steve,

In one report the wound was said to be "deep and wide" in Alice's case. Add to that fact, her head was turned "sharply" to the right which would open up the wound for a more unrestricted blood flow. In other words, if her head were turned the other way (to the left) it would have pinched the wound closed.