Blood oozing

[Elamarna]

Lloyds Weekly Newspaper
Sunday, July 15, 1888, London, Middlesex

Nice find Jerry.

Of course in that specific case it could be oozing as a wound to the heart would result in major internal bleeding and relatively little from the entrance wounds.

That is unlikely to be the case with serve damage to all of the major neck vessels.

However it is a good find and something to think over.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Like this one? (Oxford Journal - Saturday 01 September 1888)

Pierre

Pierre not sure what you are pointing out? Am I missing something?

I cannot see the word ooze or oozing. And given that both dressings and a tourniquet were applied if such was used it would not be unexpected


Steve

[Pierre]

Pierre not sure what you are pointing out? Am I missing something?

I cannot see the word ooze or oozing. And given that both dressings and a tourniquet were applied if such was used it would not be unexpected

Steve

OK, you looked for oozing and not just flowing, I see. Then you can just ignore that one.

Pierre

[jerryd]

Here's another one, Steve, and from a deep gash to the throat.

Lloyds Weekly Newspaper
Sunday, January 1, 1888, London, Middlesex

[Elamarna]

Here's another one, Steve, and from a deep gash to the throat.

Lloyds Weekly Newspaper
Sunday, January 1, 1888, London, Middlesex

Wonderful Jerry.

On first sight that seems promising.
Is that the whole article or is there more?

Does the article give us any more details such as his actual condition and and details on the wound other than deep?
Does it give any details about how long before he was found that the cut may have been made?
It looks like an attempted suicide from the brief details.

If he survived it seems the cut was not that serious given that an impression of sometime lapsing is given between the discovery and the move to hospital.

I only ask the above because the degree of bleeding will depend on which vessels are cut and the time since the cut if none of the major vessels are damaged. I hope you see my point and that I am not just being awkward.


It is certainly not easy and I am grateful for your help.


Steve

[John G]

Of course it's difficult to form firm conclusions based upon historical cases that lack detailed medical reports. For instance, Liz Stride suffered a severe neck wound-the windpipe had been completely severed, for example. However, in this case we do have a reasonably detailed account from Dr Blackwell, who noted that "she would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on only one side of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

He further observed that the throat must have been cut whilst she was falling or on the ground, otherwise "the blood would have spurred about."

[Elamarna]

The point I was trying to make or rather the points Jerry are:

If it were not a life threatening cut than it would obviously ooze at some stage, and if he was dead on arrival at hospital it would also make sense.

If it really was flowing from the cut, which it may well have been, it would be surprising if he made it to the hospital alive.

Again thanks for your great assistance.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Of course it's difficult to form firm conclusions based upon historical cases that lack detailed medical reports. For instance, Liz Stride suffered a severe neck wound-the windpipe had been completely severed, for example. However, in this case we do have a reasonably detailed account from Dr Blackwell, who noted that "she would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on only one side of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

He further observed that the throat must have been cut whilst she was falling or on the ground, otherwise "the blood would have spurred about."

Hi John,

Of course what that does raise is what did he mean timewise by:

"she would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on only one side of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

Obviously one assumes he is comparing it to the reports from the Nichols and Chapman cases.


Steve

[John G]

Hi John,

Of course what that does raise is what did he mean timewise by:

"she would have bled to death comparatively slowly on account of vessels on only one side of the neck being cut and the artery not completely severed."

Obviously one assumes he is comparing it to the reports from the Nichols and Chapman cases.


Steve

Hi Steve,

In respect of Nichols, who clearly suffered catastrophic neck injuries, Dr Biggs makes an interesting comment: "In terms of time, there would be an initial rush of blood, but the victim's blood pressure would rapidly subside (in a matter of seconds if blood loss was particularly profuse) so the rate of flow would become considerably less soon after injury. After the circulation has stopped, it will be down to gravity to continue blood loss..." (Marriott, 2013).

Might this not suggest that even in circumstances where blood is observed to be exiting the body relatively slowly, I.e. oozing, the injuries may still have been very recently inflicted?

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

In respect of Nichols, who clearly suffered catastrophic neck injuries, Dr Biggs makes an interesting comment: "In terms of time, there would be an initial rush of blood, but the victim's blood pressure would rapidly subside (in a matter of seconds if blood loss was particularly profuse) so the rate of flow would become considerably less soon after injury. After the circulation has stopped, it will be down to gravity to continue blood loss..." (Marriott, 2013).

Might this not suggest that even in circumstances were blood is observed to be exiting the body relatively slowly, I.e. oozing, the injuries may still have been very recently inflicted?

Yes I think there is no question of that.

The issue obviously revolves around the blood hypothesis in the Nichols case.
And while I have reached some conclusions on parts of it, there is still the issue however that there were two major sets of serious injuries which would have reduced the time to death considerably over just one set of injuries ( neck or abdomen) . This means that the whole issue with regards to what Neil saw, said and meant needs to Be carefully examined before reaching further conclusions.


Steve

[miss marple]

There is an interesting case that took place in Bedfordshire in1859, which involves blood flow. The murder of Jane Castle by her violent husband Joseph Castle.
Jane and Joseph left her parents house in Luton at 10.30 in the morning.
Her body was discovered less than two hours later by two young women.She was murdered in open country a mile and a half away.
Jane's body lay on its back with her legs bent back thighs resting on calves as if she had been in a kneeing position. Her throat had been cut,her body was still warm, there was an immense quantity of blood and blood still flowed from the wound.
There was a wound from left ear to windpipe, deep enough to expose muscles underneath and a deep seated wound close to the windpipe extending inwards as far as the neck vertebrae dividing the principle arteries. This was the cause of death. She had defensive wounds on her hands.

Miss Marple

[Fisherman]

There is an interesting case that took place in Bedfordshire in1859, which involves blood flow. The murder of Jane Castle by her violent husband Joseph Castle.
Jane and Joseph left her parents house in Luton at 10.30 in the morning.
Her body was discovered less than two hours later by two young women.She was murdered in open country a mile and a half away.
Jane's body lay on its back with her legs bent back thighs resting on calves as if she had been in a kneeing position. Her throat had been cut,her body was still warm, there was an immense quantity of blood and blood still flowed from the wound.
There was a wound from left ear to windpipe, deep enough to expose muscles underneath and a deep seated wound close to the windpipe extending inwards as far as the neck vertebrae dividing the principle arteries. This was the cause of death. She had defensive wounds on her hands.

Miss Marple

And it has been established that she was cut ... when? It would help knowing that.

[miss marple]

There is slightly less than two hour window. It is thought Jane defended herself on the road probably running for her life, reaching the shallow dell where she was forced to her knees. Joseph was welding a knife.
More detail: A bloodstained shawl and bonnet found nearby and marks of blood up to 27 yards away to a spot where there had been a violent struggle and the surface had been broken. A thumb and four fingers had been cut dividing tendons. The knife which belonged to Joseph's uncle was found 22 feet away in a barley field. Pretty nasty.

Miss Marple

[Elamarna]

And it has been established that she was cut ... when? It would help knowing that.

Very good point Christer, of course the real issue in all of this is the difference between blood pumping out under pressure and bleeding continuing due to gravity.

This of course is one of the key questions with regards to the blood flow Hypothesis,

However that will be resolved in the near future.


Steve

[miss marple]

The two young women who found the body had to stop a passer by on horseback, who rode into Luton to get the police. Superindendent Pope arrived and Dr Patrick Benson, they described the scene. So how long on horseback to Luton? A mile and a half, then to go to the murder scene, so the blood seemed to be flowing for quite a time, but it was coming from the arteries.

Miss Marple