Pc Long and the piece of rag.

[Joshua Rogan]

She already had on her person some suitable items, if required, so no need to cut up her clothing;

"12 pieces white rag, some slightly bloodstained"

[Phil Carter]

She already had on her person some suitable items, if required, so no need to cut up her clothing;

"12 pieces white rag, some slightly bloodstained"

Hello Joshua,

Indeed. But do tell me something.
If a woman is as drunk as a skunk and fuzzily sobering up a few hours later..what clarity of mind would she have?


Phil

[Elamarna]

Hello Steve,

I must pull you up on one point you made.
No..there is no proof that Eddowes used any cloth piece for sanitary towel purposes.. but..the overwhelming truth is that amongst the poor, cloth pieces were indeed used for such purposes. For obvious reasons of great poverty, it was at times a case of anything that could be used close to hand. If that meant tearing or cutting a cloth in their possession..they did.

There is no proof of any female person in this whole saga from Nichols to Kelly doing it. . But I can assure you it would have been done by many of the poor women in that area at that time. So, realistically, it must be considered as possible.
That does NOT mean I believe Eddowes herself dropped the piece of apron. But the act of possession must be considered imho.

Phil

Point taken Phil

i did say cutting up dirty old aprons, I was trying to be specific about the apron.

However my comment was too general, and you are right.



thanks for pointing it out



Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Indeed. But do tell me something.
If a woman is as drunk as a skunk and fuzzily sobering up a few hours later..what clarity of mind would she have?

Hi Phil,
Well, it's a theoretical possibility. But I find it extremely hard to believe that, no matter how drunk or hungover she was, Kate - someone who was wearing every stitch of clothing she owned - would start to rip up her garments before checking her pockets.

[Trevor Marriott]

She already had on her person some suitable items, if required, so no need to cut up her clothing;

"12 pieces white rag, some slightly bloodstained"

Yes, and she was known to do hawking, so those nicely folded items you refer to could have been for selling and not for use in other ways.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Joshua Rogan]

I think she could have hawked a whole apron for more money than some bloodstained rags, however. nicely folded they were.

[Fisherman]

The size and shape of the apron is unknown
The exact nature of the bloodstains on either piece (there were two, one that went with the body to the mortuary and one found at GS) is not known.

In his inquest evidence Dr Brown mentions the/a corner with a string seemingly in the context of pointing out which corner had blood marks -" the corner with the string attached" -does Dr Brown ever say that there was only one string or one corner on the apron pieces? I don't think he does. His comments are out of context because they aren't given as a description of the apron itself but a description of the location of the blood marks on the piece.

The apron had a bib portion according to the official memo sents by Matthews posted on here recently by Simon Wood.

I actually believe that the word "corner" was a mishearing of "portion" on behalf of the clerk writing down the inquest. He seems to have been more or less alone about using "corner" - the papers voted more or less unanimously for "portion".

[Debra A]

I actually believe that the word "corner" was a mishearing of "portion" on behalf of the clerk writing down the inquest. He seems to have been more or less alone about using "corner" - the papers voted more or less unanimously for "portion".

It is possible, Fisherman; but be it corner or portion, we don't know anything about the exact size, shape, or where and what type of blood stains were on either of the two portions or how many strings it had. I just thought that worth mentioning as it is coming across in some people's posts as though there is a definite official description of the apron pieces and the bloodstains on them.

Maybe Trevor would like to comment of the issue of the bib now?

[Debra A]

In fact, Fisherman, if it were portion rather than corner it makes a lot more sense.
I believe that the people who descrbed Eddowes clothing at the mortuary were puzzled by her seemingly wearing just a 'piece' of an apron. The description first circulated of her by the City Police includes the mention that she was wearing a piece of coarse white apron. Then we have early reports that she had a ribband tied around her neck, some say she had a piece of apron tied around her neck. Dr Brown in some accounts says the piece of apron was tied to the body with strings.

Personally, I think all these descriptions fit really well with the idea that Eddowes was originally wearing a full bib apron tied around her neck; half of it removed by her killer and it taken from the scene. Left with a bib tied around her neck, as the memo written by Matthews mentioned, the police were probably baffled until the second piece turned up.

Imagine we had a modern killer who cut the top portion off his victims jeans off and took it away; descriptions of the victims clothing as found would inlude 'denim leg warmers' until 10 mins later in a close by location a policeman on duty finds a pair of cut down denim shorts.

[Paddy]

I cant believe that the policeman held the apron in court, surely it would be a bit smelly ? However this picture was published that may or may not be accurate.

Pat....

[Joshua Rogan]

Well, a lot of reports refer to the apron / piece being produced, so someone was holding it up for everyone to see.
Good find.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Paddy

Although the reporters sometime misheard the inquest testimony, I believe for the most part they provide accurate reports of what was said by the witnesses called. I thus think, in the same vein, that this sketch is representative of what actually occurred at the coroner's inquest. Aye, smelly apron and all.

Best regards

Chris

[Fisherman]

In fact, Fisherman, if it were portion rather than corner it makes a lot more sense.
I believe that the people who descrbed Eddowes clothing at the mortuary were puzzled by her seemingly wearing just a 'piece' of an apron. The description first circulated of her by the City Police includes the mention that she was wearing a piece of coarse white apron. Then we have early reports that she had a ribband tied around her neck, some say she had a piece of apron tied around her neck. Dr Brown in some accounts says the piece of apron was tied to the body with strings.

Personally, I think all these descriptions fit really well with the idea that Eddowes was originally wearing a full bib apron tied around her neck; half of it removed by her killer and it taken from the scene. Left with a bib tied around her neck, as the memo written by Matthews mentioned, the police were probably baffled until the second piece turned up.

Imagine we had a modern killer who cut the top portion off his victims jeans off and took it away; descriptions of the victims clothing as found would inlude 'denim leg warmers' until 10 mins later in a close by location a policeman on duty finds a pair of cut down denim shorts.

I tend to think it was the kind of apron that went from the waist down. I believe it is all very simple - the killer grabbed the apron at the foot end, collected it´s width into his one hand, stretched it, using Eddowes´ body as a counterweight, and then cut it straight off in the middle, leaving himself with the lower portion, making up about half the apron.

But it´s anybody´s choice - even Trevors!

[Fisherman]

I cant believe that the policeman held the apron in court, surely it would be a bit smelly ? However this picture was published that may or may not be accurate.

Pat....

Illustrated Police News? And date? Looks to me like it may well be the real thing.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,
Well, it's a theoretical possibility. But I find it extremely hard to believe that, no matter how drunk or hungover she was, Kate - someone who was wearing every stitch of clothing she owned - would start to rip up her garments before checking her pockets.

Hello Joshua,

The way I see this is..how many people when under the influence of drink fail to remember minutes..hours? If so,
Could she remember what she had on her tucked away somewhere?
When drunk...it is often easier to do the thing that is easiest no matter the logical alternative.

just my thoughts

Phil