Pc Long and the piece of rag.

[David Orsam]

Look it up yourself.

You do realise don't you Phil that I am saying that the police did not provide four different versions of places the writing was written? In other words, I am saying there is nothing to look up.

So telling me to look it up myself is quite ridiculous isn't it?

However, your answer, and your inability to provide any evidence to support your statement, confirms what I already thought, namely that the various police officers gave a consistent account of the location of the writing.

[Trevor Marriott]

Once again Phil your post is based on an assumption that the killer was walking along Goulston Street "at about 2am" which conflicts with the evidence of PC Long in respect of a deposit of the apron after 2.20.

In any event, I was doing no more than offering an example of men being stopped by the police in a side road. We don't seem to have records of any men being stopped in the main roads in the period after the Eddowes murder, thus suggesting that a walk along a main road might have been safer than a side road, thus negating your point that the killer would only have walked down side roads.

We dont seem to have any evidence that there was anyone else out at that time in the immediate vicinity, which makes it even more strange that neither Long or Halse saw or heard each other despite being in close proximity to each other.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[David Orsam]

We dont seem to have any evidence that there was anyone else out at that time in the immediate vicinity, which makes it even more strange that neither Long or Halse saw or heard each other despite being in close proximity to each other.

Absence of evidence, Trevor, is not evidence of absence.

And it's not true to say "neither Long or Halse saw or heard each other". A correctly worded statement would be that there is no evidence that they saw or heard each other. Equally, neither of them were ever asked if they saw each other.

Assuming Detective Halse was in plain clothes, Long would have had no idea who he was. Long did not provide a report of every individual who walked down Goulston Street that night. On the other hand, Halse would not have been surprised to see a constable patrolling his beat and would not have thought it worthy of mention.

But if they didn't see each other I see nothing strange about that at all. It would just mean that they were a few minutes apart when they passed the location of the writing on the wall.

[Trevor Marriott]

That just depends on what route you've taken and how quickly you've moved doesn't it?

Well if I was escaping from having just committed a murder I would distance myself from the crime scene as quick as possible. The killer must have had at least 10 mins start on Halse and by that time he could have been deep into Whitechapel by then, thats of course if it is where he was heading.

Or if he was disturbed by Harvey he might have gone to ground and stayed there until daylight when more people would be on the street.

He certainty didnt go home wash up and then come out and deposit the apron piece.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[David Orsam]

Well if I was escaping from having just committed a murder I would distance myself from the crime scene as quick as possible.

You might but what would happen if you saw a constable walking in your direction as you were trying to do this?

[Trevor Marriott]

Absence of evidence, Trevor, is not evidence of absence.

And it's not true to say "neither Long or Halse saw or heard each other". A correctly worded statement would be that there is no evidence that they saw or heard each other. Equally, neither of them were ever asked if they saw each other.

Assuming Detective Halse was in plain clothes, Long would have had no idea who he was. Long did not provide a report of every individual who walked down Goulston Street that night. On the other hand, Halse would not have been surprised to see a constable patrolling his beat and would not have thought it worthy of mention.

But if they didn't see each other I see nothing strange about that at all. It would just mean that they were a few minutes apart when they passed the location of the writing on the wall.

There are lots of things you find strange that no one else does

But Halse says he stopped and spoke to two persons the inference being that there were no more on his route to speak to. If he spoke to two you would have expected him to speak to others and he would have said so. As to why he singled them out I would suggest because they were the only two he came across.

As to Long if he was a diligent as has been suggested why did he not stop and speak to anyone, was that because there was no one else out and about to speak to and the street was quiet, the only noise would be from the footsteps of Halse and Long and the light from Longs lamp.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

You might but what would happen if you saw a constable walking in your direction as you were trying to do this?

It would depend how far away from the crime scene I was.

Two choices, keep calm and blag it if stopped, because at that time that constable may not know of the murder. Second choice turn and run as soon as I saw the officer, especially if I was still carrying the knife and the rag

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[David Orsam]

There are lots of things you find strange that no one else does

I really don't think you are in any position to say what "no one else" thinks Trevor but on this occasion I'm saying I do not find it strange that Long and Halse didn't see each other. You are the one saying you find it strange, right? But it isn't.

But Halse says he stopped and spoke to two persons the inference being that there were no more on his route to speak to. If he spoke to two you would have expected him to speak to others and he would have said so. As to why he singled them out I would suggest because they were the only two he came across.

Are you having a laugh now Trevor? Is your point that you think Halse should have stopped a Metropolitan Police constable and questioned him as to what he was doing in Goulston Street?

As to Long if he was a diligent as has been suggested why did he not stop and speak to anyone, was that because there was no one else out and about to speak to and the street was quiet, the only noise would be from the footsteps of Halse and Long and the light from Longs lamp.

What are you talking about now Trevor? Why should Long have stopped to speak to anyone on his beat? There was no requirement to stop random men walking along the street. Halse only gave an order for this to be done after the discovery of the murder of Eddowes.

[David Orsam]

Second choice turn and run as soon as I saw the officer

Right, thank you, which means that if you needed to walk through Wentworth Street to get home you would now have had to take an indirect route which means that you might have taken some time to get there which means you might have been stopped and questioned by Detective Halse.

[Trevor Marriott]

Right, thank you, which means that if you needed to walk through Wentworth Street to get home you would now have had to take an indirect route which means that you might have taken some time to get there which means you might have been stopped and questioned by Detective Halse.

You have lost all sense of logical understanding there is absolutely no point in trying to engage in a sensible discussion

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[David Orsam]

You have lost all sense of logical understanding there is absolutely no point in trying to engage in a sensible discussion

That's a bemusing response. You agreed with me that, escaping from a murder scene, you might not be able to take the most direct route to a place of safety due, for example, to a police constable blocking your path. So you would need to take an indirect route, thus delaying your escape.

I'm perfectly satisfied that I haven't lose any sense of logical understanding, and clearly Detective Halse agreed with me on 30 September 1888 otherwise he wouldn't have bothered stopping two men in Wentworth Street. Had he taken your approach he would have assumed the killer had long since made his escape.

[Phil Carter]

I'm perfectly satisfied that I haven't lose any sense of logical understanding, and clearly Detective Halse agreed with me on 30 September 1888 otherwise he wouldn't have bothered stopping two men in Wentworth Street. Had he taken your approach he would have assumed the killer had long since made his escape.

I am sure you are also perfectly satisfied that your reply is grammatically correct.

It will be pleasing to all that you claim to have been there on 30th September 1888., having an agreeable chin wag with Halse. We can all add you to the number of named people present.

[David Orsam]

It will be pleasing to all that you claim to have been there on 30th September 1888., having an agreeable chin wag with Halse. We can all add you to the number of named people present.

As you are perfectly aware Phil, I don't claim to have been there on 30 September 1888. I'm sure you understood me very well but are wilfully pretending not to have done, presumably because you have nothing sensible to say in response.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Paul,

You mentioned the comparison of evidence said, presented or written at the time and that of evidence 30 years after the actual event.
Fair comment.

It strikes me that evidence presented on or around 30th Sept 1888 is far more likely to be more accurate than that 6 weeks later on 6th November 1888.

By the same comparison, I can also say with great weight that if Dew's comments 30 years after the fact are to be considered weak or even worthless, then the exact same parallel can be made with the comments of Swanson writing the marginalia/end piece notations after 1910, at least 22 years after the event. And in the latter case, perhaps even more so as we know with certainty that his comments are factually incorrect.


Phil

[Fisherman]

By the same comparison, I can also say with great weight that if Dew's comments 30 years after the fact are to be considered weak or even worthless, then the exact same parallel can be made with the comments of Swanson writing the marginalia/end piece notations after 1910, at least 22 years after the event.
Phil

Hi Phil!

Are you referring to what Dew said about the colour of the apron in his memoirs?