Pc Long and the piece of rag.

[PaulB]

Hi Paul
Thanks. I have a question for you. Does Long being transferred to another division to help out patrolling the ripper beat speak at all to his performance as a police officer? Wouldn't they transfer only the best, or at least good, to help out?

To be honest, I don't know and it's one of those questions that I've never thought to ask. I've assumed that the men weren't selected, just drafted across if available. If there was a selection process of some kind, then they may have drafted their best men, but the reality is that they needed little more than a physical presence and open eyes - quantity rather than quality - and could just as likely have drafted their worst men across and kept their best to ensure that crime elsewhere was kept to a minimum.

[PaulB]

I'm not sure if anyone else has pointed this out, I've brought this up myself in the past, that is, that PC Long was not afraid of saying he wasn't sure.
When asked about the correct spelling of Jews he replied - "It may have been."

Then when the wording of his note was questioned, he said;
"It is possible, but I do not think that I have."

When asked if he thought the writing was recent, he said:
"I could not form an opinion."

When asked why the inspector wrote "Jews", he replied: "I cannot say."
Then when asked about a discrepancy he answered: "It would seem so."

Therefore, it would appear PC Long was not concerned about admitting when he was unsure, if that was indeed the case.

So when he was asked:
"Are you able to say whether the apron was there then?"

He could easily have said "I couldn't say", or "I am not sure", rather than lie.

If I may say so, that is an exceptional, text-book piece of source analysis. Others should pay heed. Thanks you for it.

[Trevor Marriott]

When every other source described the piece around her neck as, "a large white handkerchief round the neck.", we know which piece was found on her body.
Check Collard's list and the item which reads "1 large white handkerchief, blood stained", is the piece that was around her neck.

It's really that simple, Trevor.

It is for me, but not for you it seems.

She had a large white handkerchief around her neck , not an apron, or an apron piece! It was blood stained as was the other items around her neck because she had her throat cut. That was listed amongst her clothing the old apron piece was listed in her possessions.

Take a look at the pic is John Wayne wearing a large handkerchief/Neckerchief around his neck, or an apron ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

The issue of primary and secondary sources can be complex. For instance, historians traditionally regard newspaper accounts as primary sources, however, an account based upon, say, a press release, where the first-hand account has been rewritten, would be regarded as a secondary source.

At last someone who understands well done John

And this is what Paul Begg doesnt understand. History is there to be challenged, as are historical documents in this case newspaper articles.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

It's an inquest.

Crawford would have seen all the documentation related to it as part of the process.

Monty
🙂

Didn't the city have a different method of conducting their inquests from the met, in as much as the statements were first made at the inquest itself.? I am sure this was discussed before.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PaulB]

The way it's going,it will soon be a dazzling white piece of cloth,lying on the pavement.

Long states,'The apron was lying in the passage leading to the staircase'.

There was a doorway,and beyond that a passageway.The apron piece was not in the doorway,it was stated to be in the passageway.How far beyond the doorway is not stated.Long should at least be credited as knowing the difference between a doorway and passageway.

Policemen like anyone else,do not always do as expected.I doubt Long walked the beat with his lamp always on,or that he turned it on everytime he passed an opening,or that he entered and inspected every opening,and nothing anyone has said of the entrance to Wentworth Building
leads me to believe it required special attention that night.So what w as he doing in there,and when w as he there inside.

He didn't see the cloth until he(long) was in the passageway.He states that.So if he had to be in the building before seeing the cloth,at 2.55,what chance would there be of seeing it at 2.20,from outside,when just passing by?

We do have a clear idea of conditions that night,from at least three witnesses,and all three attest to the darkness,and that with an open sky above. Well the passageway was enclosed,making it darker still.

Harry,
You need to factor Sir Charles Warren into your considerations. Sir Charles Warren came in for a lot of criticism for erasing the writing on the wall, even having to explain himself to the Home Secretary. The City Police weren't happy that the writing was erased, the press was watching Warren's every action, and if he made one slip in what he said they'd have carolled it from the churchtops. He stated where the writing was - the meaning of jamb is perfectly clear - and he said that anyone passing in the street could see the writing and could easily tear down any covering. Whatever the merits of that explanation, none of it could not have happened if the writing was actually in the 'passageway'. So, if the writing was anywhere other than where he said it was, the City Police chiefs would have very quickly exposed him. Warren therefore is strong evidence that the writing and the apron below it was at the entrance to the passage.

One might wonder why it was apparently beyond the wit of the Metropolitan Police to station one of two men at the entrance to prevent anyone from tearing down a covering, but that doesn't really have much of a bearing on the location of the apron and writing.

[PaulB]

Initially Long was suspended and warned prior to dismissal. It would seem it wasn't his first 'offence' relating to drink.

Monty
🙂

As would be expected unless he'd been sacked because his drunkeness had led to something serious.

[PaulB]

At last someone who understands well done John

And this is what Paul Begg doesnt understand. History is there to be challenged, as are historical documents in this case newspaper articles.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

What on earth are you talking about, Trevor? Of course a press release is secondary. That doesn't mean a newspaper is secondary. I've repeatedly stated that newspapers are problematical because they contain primary and secondary material. Understanding one's sources is essential. And you like to reapeat ' history if there to be challenged', but nobody, least of all me, has EVER, EVER, said otherwise. And I am well aware that historical sources are open to be challenged too. Do you seriously believe that you are saying anything, anything at all, that anyone with any understanding of what history is would not know?

Jon has said nothing I don't already know, Trevor

[DJA]

It is for me, but not for you it seems.

She had a large white handkerchief around her neck , not an apron, or an apron piece! It was blood stained as was the other items around her neck because she had her throat cut. That was listed amongst her clothing the old apron piece was listed in her possessions.

Take a look at the pic is John Wayne wearing a large handkerchief/Neckerchief around his neck, or an apron ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/34/0b/9b/340b9b4932928fa94122fdcb943f149f.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_picture_is_worth_a_thousand_words

[harry]

Charles Warren didn't appraise the situation as Long did.In darkness.Iv'e never challenged where the writing was.The w riting is a red herring.Take away Long's statement that the apron was found directly beneath the writing,and the w riting means nothing.What evidence proves Long found the apron where he said he did.That's the essential point.There isn't any.

[Trevor Marriott]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cb943f149f.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_pict...thousand_words

Sure is, and thats a sketch not a pic, not very clear at all. In any event it conflicts with Watkins who says the clothes were up around the waist, and we dont know if or when the body was touched before that sketch was made. I notice it doesnt even show the other items documented as being around the neck so I am afraid the thousand words is lost for the purpose of what you are looking to suggest.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[PaulB]

Charles Warren didn't appraise the situation as Long did.In darkness.Iv'e never challenged where the writing was.The w riting is a red herring.Take away Long's statement that the apron was found directly beneath the writing,and the w riting means nothing.What evidence proves Long found the apron where he said he did.That's the essential point.There isn't any.

It's a two way street, Harry. You ask what evidence proves Long found the apron where he said he did. I ask what evidence proves Long found the apron somewhere other than where he said he did?

As we can't go and question him, all we can do is look at the surrounding evidence, such as it is, to see if Long's claim jarrs in any way with the testimony of other people. First off, I haven't found anybody seriously questioning - or questioning at all - whether Long found the apron where he said he did. In fact, there seems to have been a broad general acceptance that the proximity of the writing to the apron strongly a suggested a connection between the two, which in turn suggests that Long's word was generally accepted. What "evidence" do you have that Long lied, other than the possibility that he could have done?

[harry]

Heres what Long would have been confronted with.Turn off the lights and let your eyes become focussed.

[DJA]

Sure is, and thats a sketch not a pic, not very clear at all. In any event it conflicts with Watkins who says the clothes were up around the waist, and we dont know if or when the body was touched before that sketch was made. I notice it doesnt even show the other items documented as being around the neck so I am afraid the thousand words is lost for the purpose of what you are looking to suggest.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Suggested three times recently that you check the sketch.
We know much more than you suggest.
Oddly the red silk gauze is not evident.

[Joshua Rogan]

He didn't see the cloth until he(long) was in the passageway.He states that.

Could you point me to where he states this, please, I seem to be unable to locate it.