Who Chose the Murder Sites?

[spyglass]

OK, same thing I asked MR-whats your theory?

Hi,
Well I'm still working on it but here's some pointers without going into minute details. ( I'm writing this on a phone )
Let's assume that JTR killed only four and that the killer was either caught or known after the double event.
However it was in some of the one's interest to keep the scare going, and so needed at least one more murder by the hand of the ripper.
Let's for example you were going to fake one.
Problems would arise of doing an outside murder and would at least take time to plan (say about just over 5 weeks )
Then of course you couldn't really murder anyone but you would need a victim ....enter Dr Bond about now.
Then you make the victim un-recognisable so identification is impossible, you can say it's whoever you want, who would doubt it?
Of course certain people are in on it and payed quite well, however Kelly nearly messes things up by coming back to the scene and being seen. The cry or sigh of "oh murder" is her coming back at the wrong time ( it's enough to make one vomit right up to early next morning )
Whether she was seen or not is enough to panic the police, so let's throw people of the scent by introducing Hutchinson and he's tailor made statement, let's make the inquest about 5 MINS long in the wrong jurisdiction under a former Policeman watching over the whole affair.
Now the police can't tell the whole world that they caught him because if they had him, then how did he kill Kelly, and also in a court case it would look strange pleading guilty to four but not five. In fact there would be plenty of problems with announcing the killer.
poor old Warren, enough to make you resign the night before.

There's plenty more I can add but am trying to keep it simple but will leave you with this.
Remember the key fiasco. ..it was if everyone on sight expected someone to have it, and like that classic scene from Laurel and Hardy..." I gave it to him to give to you to give to him "
Even the best Laid plans can end in farce.

I got you intrested now Lol!

Regards.

[Abby Normal]

Hi,
Well I'm still working on it but here's some pointers without going into minute details. ( I'm writing this on a phone )
Let's assume that JTR killed only four and that the killer was either caught or known after the double event.
However it was in some of the one's interest to keep the scare going, and so needed at least one more murder by the hand of the ripper.
Let's for example you were going to fake one.
Problems would arise of doing an outside murder and would at least take time to plan (say about just over 5 weeks )
Then of course you couldn't really murder anyone but you would need a victim ....enter Dr Bond about now.
Then you make the victim un-recognisable so identification is impossible, you can say it's whoever you want, who would doubt it?
Of course certain people are in on it and payed quite well, however Kelly nearly messes things up by coming back to the scene and being seen. The cry or sigh of "oh murder" is her coming back at the wrong time ( it's enough to make one vomit right up to early next morning )
Whether she was seen or not is enough to panic the police, so let's throw people of the scent by introducing Hutchinson and he's tailor made statement, let's make the inquest about 5 MINS long in the wrong jurisdiction under a former Policeman watching over the whole affair.
Now the police can't tell the whole world that they caught him because if they had him, then how did he kill Kelly, and also in a court case it would look strange pleading guilty to four but not five. In fact there would be plenty of problems with announcing the killer.
poor old Warren, enough to make you resign the night before.

There's plenty more I can add but am trying to keep it simple but will leave you with this.
Remember the key fiasco. ..it was if everyone on sight expected someone to have it, and like that classic scene from Laurel and Hardy..." I gave it to him to give to you to give to him "
Even the best Laid plans can end in farce.

I got you intrested now Lol!

Regards.

Are you a screen writer?

[spyglass]

Are you a screen writer?

Fact is stranger than fiction.
I did think about a best selling ripper book, but thought it only fair to share on these boards.
I haven't given everything away yet, but I did forget to mention a few other little thoughts on this that I have hinted about on other threads.
For instance what was in the Pail carried away by Bond.
why did Baxter and Bond disagree on whether Kelly was naked.
and of course Kelly ( one big mystery herself ) isn't what she seems.
stay tuned.

regards

[jerryd]

Fact is stranger than fiction.
I did think about a best selling ripper book, but thought it only fair to share on these boards.
I haven't given everything away yet, but I did forget to mention a few other little thoughts on this that I have hinted about on other threads.
For instance what was in the Pail carried away by Bond.
why did Baxter and Bond disagree on whether Kelly was naked.
and of course Kelly ( one big mystery herself ) isn't what she seems.
stay tuned.

regards

One spanner is that the pail went to the home of Dr Phillips, not Bond.

[spyglass]

One spanner is that the pail went to the home of Dr Phillips, not Bond.

Just making sure people are paying attention .

[spyglass]

Hi,
I have to say that my thinking on all this started way back when I read Simon Woods once questioned if the second MJK photo was a fake.
This got me thinking on what if the MJK murder was a fake, how would one go about it.
Now far fetched possibly, however ask yourself this as I did.
There is no doubt that the Murder of MJK complicates the whole ripper story, everything about it muddies the waters about what happened up to it.
If the MJK murder had never happened, we would be left with just four foul yet more simplistic murders by someone unknown ( at least to us if not the police )
And therefore proberbly just debating about Kosminski, Druitt and the other top suspects named at the time ( including Tumblety ) and all would be high on the list.
You could also throw in the retirement home I.D.
So add on murder number 5 , and things change...alot.

Just saying.

Regards

[jerryd]

Hi,
I have to say that my thinking on all this started way back when I read Simon Woods once questioned if the second MJK photo was a fake.
This got me thinking on what if the MJK murder was a fake, how would one go about it.
Now far fetched possibly, however ask yourself this as I did.
There is no doubt that the Murder of MJK complicates the whole ripper story, everything about it muddies the waters about what happened up to it.
If the MJK murder had never happened, we would be left with just four foul yet more simplistic murders by someone unknown ( at least to us if not the police )
And therefore proberbly just debating about Kosminski, Druitt and the other top suspects named at the time ( including Tumblety ) and all would be high on the list.
You could also throw in the retirement home I.D.
So add on murder number 5 , and things change...alot.

Just saying.

Regards

Hi Spyglass,

The murder of MJK does add a twist to the C-5, I agree. She was killed almost a month and a half after Eddowes. Without her murder, basically the C-4 all happened in a 31 day period. Call it September, if you will. (Polly Nichols was murdered less than 24 hours from being killed in September. Chapman, Stride and Eddowes all in September)

[Fisherman]

is 50/50 better or worse than you thought before???

Wouldnīt that boil down to what we define as "better" and "worse", respectively?

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish



right we don't know either way. this is why I lean no:

she had recently been living with Barnett there. don't think shes going to bring clients home, or even prostituting, while she was with him.

he said he was upset with her letting her prostitute friends sleep there. NOT that she was bringing clients home.

there is no evidence, witness testimony or otherwise that she did.

the general saying-"don't **** where you eat".


not to me.
I think the circumstances lead to her knowing him even if loosely.
Does a prostitute client relationship usually involve, singing, drinking together, hanging out in ones room for a while? maybe grabbing a bite to eat? not to me it dosnt. it seems more like she knew this guy, liked him and possibly looking for a new boyfriend sugar daddy having recently broken up with Barnett.

But I admit she could have used her room for prostitution and blotchy could have been strictly a client, I just lean towrd no. no bigee.

The reason Barnett was not upset with Kelly taking customers home was probably that she did not do so when staying with him. To me, the repulsion he felt about having other prostitutes staying in the room could well have been due to his knowledge that Kelly had used the room for sex with paying customers. So he wanted that part of her life to go away.

On Blotchy, yes many prostitution affairs involve friendliness, singing, drinking together etcetera. Any prostitute wants her clients to relax and feel comfortable - it serves the deal best, and everyone is happy. Many prostitutes have witnessed about men who are willing to pay for company without sex, even.

Compare, if you will, with Tabram and Pearly Poll, and their night out with their soldier boys. A very amicable event, by the signs of things, drinking and making merry together before departing for sex in couples. Ponder Stride and the man she was seen with by Gardner and Best, looking quite the couple. Loosening up is part of the game.

I agree, though, that no absolute certainty can be reached; it is what it is, and can be interpreted in more than one way!

[Michael W Richards]

Ok well then how is the commission related to the ripper murders? how does it tie in to your idea that there was more than one killer.

whats your theory?

Sorry for the delay in responding....ok, its my belief that perhaps one or more of the Canonical murders was due to the targeted women being in possession of information that others found threatening. I believe that its very possible that Anderson and Monroe and some other senior staffers were aware of the link from those crimes to known criminals and "conspiracists" that they had been monitoring and/or sponsoring. Under the guise of National Security and counter espionage they suppressed that information, and protected themselves...it might explain Monroes later humanitarian efforts as an effort to cleanse a guilty conscience and Andersons assertions without proof that the individual(s) were known by the police.

I find it much more plausible that motives involving some form of defensive aggression or even romantic entanglements were involved with some of these crimes, than they can be logically grouped and explained under the heading "Random violence". Each victim had their own unique circumstances, and as such, their own backstories. I believe within those backstories are where we would see some of the victims intersect.

For example.....a shared experience in the past with prominent Irish self rule factions.

[Fisherman]

Sorry for the delay in responding....ok, its my belief that perhaps one or more of the Canonical murders was due to the targeted women being in possession of information that others found threatening. I believe that its very possible that Anderson and Monroe and some other senior staffers were aware of the link from those crimes to known criminals and "conspiracists" that they had been monitoring and/or sponsoring. Under the guise of National Security and counter espionage they suppressed that information, and protected themselves...it might explain Monroes later humanitarian efforts as an effort to cleanse a guilty conscience and Andersons assertions without proof that the individual(s) were known by the police.

I find it much more plausible that motives involving some form of defensive aggression or even romantic entanglements were involved with some of these crimes, than they can be logically grouped and explained under the heading "Random violence". Each victim had their own unique circumstances, and as such, their own backstories. I believe within those backstories are where we would see some of the victims intersect.

For example.....a shared experience in the past with prominent Irish self rule factions.

Michael, I take it you must have asked yourself whether there are any parallel cases, where victims of a serial killer have been put to death in order to stop some sort of information from being released.
What answer were you able to obtain?

Please observe that I am not saying that you are probably right or probably wrong, I am simply curious about the historical backdrop.

[The Good Michael]

The reason Barnett was not upset with Kelly taking customers home was probably that she did not do so when staying with him. To me, the repulsion he felt about having other prostitutes staying in the room could well have been due to his knowledge that Kelly had used the room for sex with paying customers. So he wanted that part of her life to go away.

I'd bet he was 50/50 on this. If he'd made too many demands, he wouldn't have a girlfriend long. I'm sure he hated it, but probably thought of it as a necessary evil when they needed money. The same goes for the beaus of the other victims. Just because Barnett says he left because she returned to her ways doesn't make it 100% true. He surely knew it was going to happen as he had no employment.

Mike

[Fisherman]

I'd bet he was 50/50 on this. If he'd made too many demands, he wouldn't have a girlfriend long. I'm sure he hated it, but probably thought of it as a necessary evil when they needed money. The same goes for the beaus of the other victims. Just because Barnett says he left because she returned to her ways doesn't make it 100% true. He surely knew it was going to happen as he had no employment.

Mike

There is information about how he was unable to give any money to Kelly since he had lost his job, so I donīt think that he lived on her prostitution money at any remove in time.
I tend to believe Barnett when he says he left on account of her returning to her old life. He clearly resented it and one must feel for him, unable to shape the life he wanted on account of loosing his work.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, I take it you must have asked yourself whether there are any parallel cases, where victims of a serial killer have been put to death in order to stop some sort of information from being released.
What answer were you able to obtain?

Please observe that I am not saying that you are probably right or probably wrong, I am simply curious about the historical backdrop.

I have not used data concerning modern serial killers Fisherman to validate or explain any incongruities or inconsistencies from murder to murder, I don't see anything that suggests that more than 3 Canonicals should be linked to a single killer. Granted that meets the criteria for the label, but I don't see evidence that suggests to me an ongoing run from late August to November.

Here is where I see the backstories perhaps colliding....with Irish self rule groups and/or individuals. I see a direct link with one victim, and a possible link via Paris with another. Paris being a hotspot during those years for both English counter espionage folks as well as senior self rule figures. I believe its possible that 2 Canonicals died because of their link to, or knowledge of such individuals. Oddly enough they are consecutive victims, and the first victim used almost the exact name and address of the subsequent victim as aliases in her last 24 hours.

[Michael W Richards]

I'd bet he was 50/50 on this. If he'd made too many demands, he wouldn't have a girlfriend long. I'm sure he hated it, but probably thought of it as a necessary evil when they needed money. The same goes for the beaus of the other victims. Just because Barnett says he left because she returned to her ways doesn't make it 100% true. He surely knew it was going to happen as he had no employment.

Mike

Since they were in arrears to the tune of 2 1/2 weeks, and that Mary had expressed fear about the current situation on the streets for streetwalkers, and that she was far more accustomed to working in a protected situation like in a brothel as an escort, and that the room was in her own known name, I don't see any validation for supposing that suddenly after Joes departure that she decides to get out and work. Maria gave her a coin that last night, Barnett was sorry he didn't bring money that last visit, so it seems she didn't have means of her own.

Desperation surely could lead itself to solicitation, but that's far more probable when the woman didn't have a place to sleep anyway. Not Marys problem.