Who Chose the Murder Sites?

[c.d.]

Hello Harry,

Exactly. The other problem that arises is the question of where these women would have obtained these dangerous secrets. It's not like they were high class call girls and socialites rubbing elbows with the London elite.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Harry,

Exactly. The other problem that arises is the question of where these women would have obtained these dangerous secrets. It's not like they were high class call girls and socialites rubbing elbows with the London elite.

c.d.

Perhaps that's the reason why you cant see merit in the suggestion cd. If you can recall, Mary Kelly worked for a Madam in a better part of town, had nice dresses, and was what sounds like a courtesan who spent time in Paris with men. Men with money and power. Guess who else visited Paris in the early, mid and late 1880's? Senior detectives and their spouses, and men who had the highest positions with HMG working in counter espionage. Why were they there? Because Paris was used by the top ranking members of the Irish Self Rule movement...like Millen....to plan out activities that would take place on English soil. The Jubillee Bomb Plot conspirators were there...likely so were Balfour assassination plotters in 1888. Ever wonder why Anderson had to be called back to London from Paris, instead of Switzerland, where we were told he went?

You and others paint all these women as poverty stricken, yet you forget that they had not always been that way. People they met earlier in their lives might have been the people they were eventually killed for...like Kates former man, a member of the Irish Army. Their circle of friends might have been dangerous people, and one or more might be who Kate alluded to when she stated to her ex-landlady that she knew the killer and intended to turn him in for a reward.

Harry and yourself can continue to typecast and make assumptions about why within these Five Canonical murders the skill and knowledge shown by the killer varies dramatically, Id rather consider if there could be alternative motives to explain different killers.

Do people who know dangerous people ever get killed for that knowledge? Of course they do. The question I pose is could be possible we have similar situations with some Canonical victims.

If you think that plain old killers don't mutilate to disguise or hide the victim, or perhaps to imitate a killer at large, you should read more often.

[Joshua Rogan]

Kates former man, a member of the Irish Army

I thought he was in the Royal Irish Regiment....wasn't that part of the British Army?

[c.d.]

"Harry and yourself can continue to typecast and make assumptions about why within these Five Canonical murders the skill and knowledge shown by the killer varies dramatically, Id rather consider if there could be alternative motives to explain different killers."

Hello Michael,

But is any of that information regarding Mary verifiable? I am willing to accept your argument that Mary and even all of the victims were killed for their knowledge but at this point isn't that just a theory with no supporting evidence?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

I thought he was in the Royal Irish Regiment....wasn't that part of the British Army?

Yes, it was, Joshua.

[Michael W Richards]

Sorry for misrepresenting Conways association, and Id like to second cd by welcoming Sam back to the talks. And Merry Xmas Gareth.

As you can see Im still turning the box upside down and around to see if its sound....but on the crux of my point, I think its a necessity to review the 5 Canonicals evidence independently instead of just accepting inclusion without question. Even layman like myself can see there are some basic problems with that theory.

As I said earlier, we have some evidence that suggests the first 2 Canonical murders were very likely done by the same person. All the relevant characteristics are present and consistent. They were both actively soliciting, that's part of that same evidence. And that's where the established pattern and behaviours cease within that Group of Five. There are arguments for including Kate as the most probable next victim, but we do not the answers to why she was in the opposite direction of her known partner right after her release.

Im not talking about the physical data.....so many Canonical Theorists think the contraries like myself rely on the differing levels of skill and knowledge shown to make our arguments, when in fact the circumstantial evidence is what drives the inquiries and ideas.

Liz Stride was not mutilated, and she was gainfully employed in the weeks leading up to her murder, including the last day she was alive. She broke up with a love interest that same week. Kate and John had just returned to town and Kate claimed knowledge of the killers identity. Kates used eerily coincidental aliases in her last 24 hours considering the next victims name address, Mary was afraid of the streets, was sharing her room until the Tuesday of that last week, had split with her boyfriend, and killed while in bed undressed.

Is it that curious that I would consider some additional historical and circumstantial data before making up any "series' beyond the first 2 murders?

[Sam Flynn]

Cheers, Michael, and a Merry Christmas to you too

[Michael W Richards]

To get back on the rails.....do we have evidence that Kate was overly familiar with the alleys and courtyards within the City limits? If she led the killer, then it follows she would know where she was headed. Did she?

[Joshua Rogan]

Not Kate in particular, but at least one report has it as a regular haunt for prostitutes in general;

Daily News 2nd Oct
It seems that the particular corner of Mitre-square in which the body of the woman was found has long had an evil reputation. Said a man whose occupation for many years has thoroughly familiarized him with the locality and all that has gone on in it, "I have often heard the policeman who went this beat regularly for sixteen years say that that was a well-known resort, and from my own knowledge it is so. The place is well patrolled," he continued in reply to queries. "Yes, there's no doubt about that. The constable on the beat now is as regular as clockwork. You may tell to a minute when he'll be round." "May not that have rather assisted in this business? Is it not possible that his movements were well known and reckoned on?" "Very likely indeed. These women know all about the police and how they go about.

[Michael W Richards]

Not Kate in particular, but at least one report has it as a regular haunt for prostitutes in general;

Daily News 2nd Oct
It seems that the particular corner of Mitre-square in which the body of the woman was found has long had an evil reputation. Said a man whose occupation for many years has thoroughly familiarized him with the locality and all that has gone on in it, "I have often heard the policeman who went this beat regularly for sixteen years say that that was a well-known resort, and from my own knowledge it is so. The place is well patrolled," he continued in reply to queries. "Yes, there's no doubt about that. The constable on the beat now is as regular as clockwork. You may tell to a minute when he'll be round." "May not that have rather assisted in this business? Is it not possible that his movements were well known and reckoned on?" "Very likely indeed. These women know all about the police and how they go about.

Hi Joshua,

Heres the thing, we have evidence that Kate and John were together every night during the period that they were a "team" leading up to the murder. She apparently wasn't out trawling anywhere. Then we have the evidence that she had been out of town for a few months with John, hops picking.

So when did she gain familiarity with a square that is almost in total darkness when she enters it? I think my point is that we have very little evidence that Kate was any kind of regular street walker. That she may have resorted to it on occasion is one thing, but enough to be familiar with tiny dark squares in the city?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Joshua,

Heres the thing, we have evidence that Kate and John were together every night during the period that they were a "team" leading up to the murder. She apparently wasn't out trawling anywhere. Then we have the evidence that she had been out of town for a few months with John, hops picking.

So when did she gain familiarity with a square that is almost in total darkness when she enters it? I think my point is that we have very little evidence that Kate was any kind of regular street walker. That she may have resorted to it on occasion is one thing, but enough to be familiar with tiny dark squares in the city?

She had been living 15mins from Mitre Square for the past 7 years, Mike.
Of course she knew the vicinity.

[Michael W Richards]

She had been living 15mins from Mitre Square for the past 7 years, Mike.
Of course she knew the vicinity.

I believe that suggests that its reasonable to assume that she knew Mitre Square Jon, not that she did.

I think in the case we have here, its equally probable that either Kate or Sailor Man led the way into the darkness. Which makes the question of knowledge that much more significant.

[Jon Guy]

I believe that suggests that its reasonable to assume that she knew Mitre Square Jon, not that she did.

Yes, she and any other local would have been familiar with the surrounding vicinity.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, she and any other local would have been familiar with the surrounding vicinity.

Youll forgive me Jon I take your comments as what you believe is the case rather than as an empirical fact.

[Jon Guy]

Youll forgive me Jon I take your comments as what you believe is the case rather than as an empirical fact.

They're both the same thing, Mike, but you can believe what you want.