Who Chose the Murder Sites?

[Harry D]

The method of killing is part of the problem Harry, not a way to reconcile these as serial in nature. Liz Strides killer did not attempt in any form to alter her fallen position, let alone prepare or attempt organ removal. And in Marys case, I think it would be difficult to make a legitimate case that her killer was interested in what organs he could take based on the crime scene. Most of what happened in that room had little or nothing to do with taking life, or organs. Mary was essentially destroyed by knife, the fact he took her heart is almost incidental. Many crimes of the period involved knives, most stabbings Ill concede, but I read about a few throat cuts during that Fall that had nothing to do with serial killers. The weapon was accessible to most, the choice to cut the throat twice was rather unique. I consider those victims as probables.

That's a distinction without a difference, Michael. You are choosing to exaggerate the negligible differences instead of weighing them against the overwhelming similarities. If we look at the correlation between the murders of Chapman & Eddowes (acknowledging Stride as a grey area), we can see a direct escalation in the severity of the post-mortem injuries. Either this was the same killer, who had yet to be apprehended, becoming bolder/angrier or a copycat murderer continued the pattern of the previous murders for some criminal or political motive, instead of just slashing her throat and having done with it (Stride was accepted into the investigation despite the lack of mutilations).

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
Can't remember if I posted my idea /theory on here or another thread, but II don't think MJK was murdered.
This then splits into two differing reasons why.
But one thing remains the same for me and that is Maxwell's statement should be taken very seriously.
what is compelling is the fact that she gave her statement to the police on the very same day, and so would be fresh in her mind.
She stuck to it rigidly even when practically told she was a liar at the inquest.
Now in the official file on MJK, there is one news paper cutting that is a very incorrect description of the crime scene at Millers Court, I questioned why the police would save an incorrect newspaper report, but one very striking thing stands out in it to me, and that being the report mentions a "purple velvet bodice" found in the room, the same item that Maxwell's statement mentions.
We know by latter reports that it wasn't found in the room.
The reporter could only have got these facts from the police ( again on the 9th ) and so I suggest the police knew Kelly was alive, knew she had been seen and had to try and discredit Maxwell with every opportunity they could.

tegards

It wasn't necessarily the same day for Maxwell - some reports say she had just finished a night shift so presumably had gone to bed after seeing Mary. I know from doing night shifts myself that it's not always easy to remember what day it is when you wake up.
She does seem to have spoken to the press on the 9th though, so what makes you think they could only have known about the bodice from the police?

[Joshua Rogan]

There is little evidence in the case of Polly, or Annie, that superfluous cutting was on his mind. He intended to kill, then mutilate the abdomen with the goal of obtaining abdominal organs.

"There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards."

What organs was Polly's killer hoping to remove with these cuts described by
Dr Llewellyn?

[Michael W Richards]

"There were several incisions running across the abdomen. On the right side there were also three or four similar cuts running downwards."

What organs was Polly's killer hoping to remove with these cuts described by
Dr Llewellyn?

I did say there was "little" evidence to be fair Josh, I wasn't re-writing any findings. What is clear is that Pollys killer wanted her dead, then to mutilate her abdomen.

To Harry, we have killer that wanted to kill then mutilate the abdomen with Polly, then Annie. Liz Stride was not mutilated, nor prepped for it. Kates killer did much the same as Pollys and Annies did, which is one reason I am on the fence with her inclusion. But the lack of knife skill and focus, added to the reasonable possibility of a motive, make me hesitant.

Polly-was soliciting-had throat cut 2 times, deeply-abdomen mutilated
Annie-was soliciting-had throat cut 2 times, deeply-abdomen mutilated-abdominal taken.
Liz-throat cut once
Kate-throat cut 2 times, deeply-abdomen mutilated-face mutilated-trunk organs taken.
Mary-hard to determine exact number of throat cuts-abdomen, chest, face, legs mutilated, organ taken from chest

[spyglass]

It wasn't necessarily the same day for Maxwell - some reports say she had just finished a night shift so presumably had gone to bed after seeing Mary. I know from doing night shifts myself that it's not always easy to remember what day it is when you wake up.
She does seem to have spoken to the press on the 9th though, so what makes you think they could only have known about the bodice from the police?

Hi,
Well I'm guessing the press or anyone else weren't allowed to view the scene, and considering that on the whole the article gets a few facts right, then must have been briefed officially or non officially by the Police.
And the " purple velvet bodice " laying on a pile of clothes just wasn't the case.
And this one description in the article stands right out at you read it.


regards

[spyglass]

Hi,
Well I'm guessing the press or anyone else weren't allowed to view the scene, and considering that on the whole the article gets a few facts right, then must have been briefed officially or non officially by the Police.
And the " purple velvet bodice " laying on a pile of clothes just wasn't the case.
And this one description in the article stands right out at you read it.


regards

Meant to read "stands out at you as you read it"

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi,
Well I'm guessing the press or anyone else weren't allowed to view the scene, and considering that on the whole the article gets a few facts right, then must have been briefed officially or non officially by the Police.
And the " purple velvet bodice " laying on a pile of clothes just wasn't the case.
And this one description in the article stands right out at you read it.


regards

Would it be possible to post Maxwell's mention of the "purple velvet bodice"? I can only find her mentioning a velvet bodice and maroon shawl in the reports of the inquest.

[spyglass]

Would it be possible to post Maxwell's mention of the "purple velvet bodice"? I can only find her mentioning a velvet bodice and maroon shawl in the reports of the inquest.

Hi,
I'm certain that I have read differing version's from "velvet bodice" " dark velvet bodice" and " purple bodice "
I know that "purple" had always been in my head before I read the news paper article, so I must have read it somewhere, but not sure what book.
But even without the mention of the colour, I feel the mention of a velvet bodice by Maxwell and the newspaper article, and the fact the police felt it important to file it smells slightly fishy to me.

regards

[Joshua Rogan]

I did say there was "little" evidence to be fair Josh, I wasn't re-writing any findings. What is clear is that Pollys killer wanted her dead, then to mutilate her abdomen.

It may only be a little piece of evidence, but it's undeniable that there were superfluous cuts to Polly's abdomen, if the killer wanted to remove organs.
But it's not really possible to know what the killer wanted, only what he was able to accomplish under the circumstances. Given sufficient time and privacy, all of the victims might have ended up just like Mary.

Polly-was soliciting-had throat cut 2 times, deeply-abdomen mutilated
Annie-was soliciting-had throat cut 2 times, deeply-abdomen mutilated-abdominal taken.
Liz-throat cut once
Kate-throat cut 2 times, deeply-abdomen mutilated-face mutilated-trunk organs taken.
Mary-hard to determine exact number of throat cuts-abdomen, chest, face, legs mutilated, organ taken from chest

Liz aside, doesn't this sound like a logical progression for a killer who was growing more confident/ambitious in his work?

[Michael W Richards]

It may only be a little piece of evidence, but it's undeniable that there were superfluous cuts to Polly's abdomen, if the killer wanted to remove organs.
But it's not really possible to know what the killer wanted, only what he was able to accomplish under the circumstances. Given sufficient time and privacy, all of the victims might have ended up just like Mary.

Liz aside, doesn't this sound like a logical progression for a killer who was growing more confident/ambitious in his work?

How is that both you and Harry want to promote the serial killer idea but still want Stride set aside? If someone else kills Liz, isn't that proof positive someone other than Jack was also slitting throats...just like Mr Brown did on that same night?

As for Pollys cuts, Im of the opinion that the mutilations were interrupted in that case, not in Strides though. There is evidence that Polly may have been found within a minute of the last cuts, and there is evidence in Strides case that may mean the killer and her were alone in the passageway for over 10 minutes...without any attempt to prep or mutilate present.

As for logical progression, to me its logical when 2 murders are almost identical and within 2 weeks time that the killer would continue in that same style. Polly and Annie were soliciting...there is no good evidence, only assumptions, that the other three were also. The Victimology is important, particularly when a supposed victim is half the age of the other priors and is killed indoors in bed.

[Harry D]

This is incredibly simplistic thinking. Frankly, I would be more surprised if all five murders WERE identical, considering the variables involved. So, in your mind, Eddowes' face was mutilated, that rules her out. Mary Kelly was younger than the others and killed indoors, that rules her out too. Obviously, the extensive mutilations and evisceration inflicted on both victims was a front to cover up the political motives behind these two murders. Come onnnnn....

[Phil Carter]

This is incredibly simplistic thinking. Frankly, I would be more surprised if all five murders WERE identical, considering the variables involved. So, in your mind, Eddowes' face was mutilated, that rules her out. Mary Kelly was younger than the others and killed indoors, that rules her out too. Obviously, the extensive mutilations and evisceration inflicted on both victims was a front to cover up the political motives behind these two murders. Come onnnnn....

A few days after the Eddowes murder, The Times stated that on high authority they were told that the murders were committed by different people.

The police continued to push the "single killer" theory to the public though.


Phil

[David Orsam]

A few days after the Eddowes murder, The Times stated that on high authority they were told that the murders were committed by different people.

Come on then Phil, I'll bite.

On what date did the Times say this? And what were the exact words used?

Or will I be told I have to find it myself?

[Phil Carter]

Come on then Phil, I'll bite.

On what date did the Times say this? And what were the exact words used?

Or will I be told I have to find it myself?

Look in the Ultimate. Or Scotlsnd Yard investigates.


Happy hunting.



Phil

[David Orsam]

Look in the Ultimate. Or Scotlsnd Yard investigates.
Happy hunting.

Oh I thought so Phil.

No, I don't think I'll bother. Wild goose chases for things that don't exist aren't really my thing.