Where was Jack the Ripper's payment? How much did Mary Jane Kelly charge?

[Ben]

Hi Robert,

“Devil,s Advocate: The man who robbed the liquor store wore a Chicago Bulls Starter jacket, baggy pants and a new pair of Air Jordan hi-tops. He also wore a thick gold chain with a crucifix.

If I gave this modern description of a perpetraror, would you consider my eyewitness testimony suspicious?”

Perhaps if you sat on this crucial evidence for three days, and only came forward after realising that an independent witness had seen you loitering opposite the liquor store shortly before the robbery was supposed to have been committed; and maybe if the type of person you described was very unlikely, for whatever reason, to have gone anywhere near the district where the liquor store was located.

Otherwise, there is nothing inherently suspicious about the level of detail in your description, unlike some others I’ve read – in fact, if anything, it could benefit from additional eyelash detail.

Returning to topic, I agree that the killer probably robbed his victims and rifled through their possessions for anything that might be of value. In Kelly's case, however, it is more than possible that she was attacked in her sleep, which would obviously abrogate the need for the killer to pose as a client.

All the best,
Ben

[DJA]

Youve based your questions on the assumption that Jack met with his victims while they were soliciting and while he posed as a client. Its worth remembering that only 2 of the Canonicals can be assumed to have been soliciting strange men, because they actually told friends that they were on the very nights they were killed.

Actually they told people they were seeking several pence for the nights lodging.
Both headed toward Hanbury Street.

Mary Kelly purportedly asked Hutchinson for a loan of sixpence.

Eddowes was not known to prostitute herself.

Stride seems to have reformed herself from her younger days.

Prostitutes?

[caz]

Kelly is specifically quoted in Hutchinson’s statement as having said “Hutchinson, will you lend me sixpence?”. If you lend someone money, you are doing so on the understanding that it will be returned at some stage, which is completely different from a prostitute-client relationship, in which the latter’s payment – for that specific service - is certainly not returned. So if Hutchinson was actually propositioned by Kelly, but told the police that she only wanted him to lend her money (attributing to her a direct quote to that effect), it wouldn’t have been a “sanitisation” so much as a fabrication.

Hi Ben,

If Kelly did ask Hutchinson to lend her sixpence, she wouldn't necessarily have meant it literally. We can all read between the lines of Victorian street sex-speak, full of euphemism, affected innocence and false modesty: "Not tonight, maybe another night"; "I'll soon earn my doss again, see what a jolly bonnet I have now"; "You'll be all right for what I told you"; "You will be comfortable" - and so on and so forth. Kelly could have been banking on Hutch saying: "No my dear, I'll give you the sixpence if you'll let me share your bed tonight".

Actually they told people they were seeking several pence for the nights lodging.
Both headed toward Hanbury Street.

Mary Kelly purportedly asked Hutchinson for a loan of sixpence.

Eddowes was not known to prostitute herself.

Stride seems to have reformed herself from her younger days.

Prostitutes?

Hi DJA,

I'm not sure it's particularly relevant. The point is that their killer may have presumed they were only out on the streets for one reason - to earn a few pence for drink or doss. At the very least he was able to take advantage of their availability and vulnerability, which made them easy targets for a predator.

While the victims could in theory have included, say, a vicar's wife on her way to help out at a soup kitchen, or someone like Carrie Maxwell running some domestic errand, that doesn't appear to have been the case, does it? The victims all seemed to be engaged in the tough business of survival when life itself was rudely and violently snatched from them.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

If Kelly did ask Hutchinson to lend her sixpence, she wouldn't necessarily have meant it literally. We can all read between the lines of Victorian street sex-speak, full of euphemism, affected innocence and false modesty

It’s possible, Caz, but I rather suspect the reality of Whitechapel’s mean streets was such that business was transacted without the need for much coquettishness, false modesty, euphemism etc. Given the destitution experienced by most prostitutes living in the area, and coupled with the fact that most clients were ordinary working east enders whose financial predicaments were often not much better, it seems likely that both parties got to the point (in more ways than one!) pretty quickly. The conversation overhead by Elizabeth Long - “Will you?” “Yes.” – between Chapman and her presumed killer was probably not far from the norm in terms of prostitute pick-ups.

All the best,
Ben

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Caz.

Random: I overheard your signature this past weekend. Been watching I, Claudius on YT; it had two links, to The Greatest Epic Never Made and Peter Ustinov's impression of [the g.o.a.t.] Charles Laughton. Had him saying, "Comedy is just tragedy that's gone horribly wrong."

MicahaelWR is correct; I am making the sophomore mistake of assuming that Jack the Ripper was propositioning the ladies prior to their murders. There is no proof of his motives. GUT has suggested the alternative of a stalking killer, which will require some consideration. Still, I'd be the last person to ever lay claim to starting the rumor that these ladies were soliciting on those nights. As far as interpreting the evidence for solicitation:

1. It is damn near-impossible to reasonably suggest that Catherine Eddowes was soliciting herself after jail.
2. Based on attire, Elizabeth Stride is either seen with different men on Berner St. in the hour and a half after 11p -or- one man who makes several wardrobe changes. She is seen kissing one of the men, and none of the men are her boyfriend Michael Kidney. None of the men ever come forward with their testimony.
3. Mary Jane Kelly was associating with prostitutes. She was seen taking a man into her apartment who wasn't her boyfriend in the early hours of the day that she is murdered. And her boyfriend Joe Barnett claims that she had returned to prostituting.

I think it leaves a narrow field of possibilities for how Elizabeth and Mary Jane were employing their time on those nights. Overall, I see two courses of interest in the Jack the Ripper case: the history and the mystery. I personally have a deep admiration for the application of the historical method; however, I feel that it can stagnate the investigation by demanding proof that just isn't there.

RStD

[Michael W Richards]

Hi DJA,

To respond;

Actually they told people they were seeking several pence for the nights lodging. Both headed toward Hanbury Street.

Actually Polly said that she had "earned" her doss several times over and drank the proceeds, and Annie said as she loitered on the street that despite her feeling ill she needed to "earn" doss.

Mary Kelly purportedly asked Hutchinson for a loan of sixpence.

Id prefer allegedly, since its unprovable.

Eddowes was not known to prostitute herself.

Valuable point there....I wish most people recognized that when speculating about what she was doing outside Mitre Square.

Stride seems to have reformed herself from her younger days.

Again, a valuable insight....in fact Liz, even during her days as a registered street prostitute in Goteborg, sought legitimate work...and found it. She had been a maid/nanny, a coffee shop owner and it appears she actively engaged as a charwoman at the time of her death.

Prostitutes?

Unfortunates...by definition.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=DJA;384380]

Mary Kelly purportedly asked Hutchinson for a loan of sixpence.

Given the fact of the tendency of the source, the statement about Kelly asking for a loan of sixpence can be part of this tendency.

Regards, Pierre

[Wickerman]

...The larger lodger houses catered to upwards of 400 lodgers on a nightly basis, many of them transient, making it very unlikely that anyone would have the time or inclination to scrutinise the movements of one particular needle in such a haystack. The residents of these establishments were too preoccupied with their own daily struggle for survival to engage in curtain-twitching antics, and it wasn’t as though a man dossing down in the small hours was remotely unusual.

Quite the contrary Ben, these people have to sleep with one eye open. Very little could be kept from prying eyes and itchy fingers. Thieves and petty criminals have everything to gain from spying on their neighbour to see if he has anything of value, which wouldn't need to be much, or to see if his face is familiar.
You cannot trust anyone in these places, and as a result a common lodging-house is the worst place a bloodstained serial killer carrying trophies would go to seek safety.

[caz]

It’s possible, Caz, but I rather suspect the reality of Whitechapel’s mean streets was such that business was transacted without the need for much coquettishness, false modesty, euphemism etc. Given the destitution experienced by most prostitutes living in the area, and coupled with the fact that most clients were ordinary working east enders whose financial predicaments were often not much better, it seems likely that both parties got to the point (in more ways than one!) pretty quickly. The conversation overhead by Elizabeth Long - “Will you?” “Yes.” – between Chapman and her presumed killer was probably not far from the norm in terms of prostitute pick-ups.

All the best,
Ben

But there's another one for you, Ben:

"Will you....what?"

"...allow me to lend you sixpence?"

"...let me fondle your knockers?"

"...lie down so I can rip out your innards?"

Why wasn't Mrs Long asked to articulate precisely what was being requested if the conversation had been as earthy and to the point as you suggest? This was a murder investigation, not a WI knitting circle.

If that was all the witness heard, and all the suspect said ("Will you?") doesn't it illustrate my point that some things were understood but not stated?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

1. It is damn near-impossible to reasonably suggest that Catherine Eddowes was soliciting herself after jail.

Hi Robert,

Personally I find it difficult to imagine what the poor woman was doing going to Mitre Square after leaving the nick if she wasn't trying to earn a few pence to take home to her other half to avoid the "damned good hiding" she mentioned.

She had only recently returned from hopping - a rotten season for it that year - so the idea that she knew the ripper and had some arrangement in place to meet him, or some third party, may be sexier but doesn't do it for me I'm afraid. Her absence from the hunting ground seems to have made her less wary of the dangers than she might otherwise have been. My money's on her encountering Stride's killer, allowing herself to be picked up by him and paying the full price.

Love,

Caz
X

[curious4]

Getting on the Swedish register of prostitutes was incredibly easy at the time. Not having a fixed address or having a baby out of wedlock (as Liz did) was enough to get a woman on the register. So Liz didn't necessarily have had to be a streetwalker.

C4

[Ben]

No Jon, not "quite the contrary" - precisely what I said.

Some of the larger lodging houses enjoyed better reputations than their smaller unisex counterparts, with some even operating a vetting process designed to filter out known "bad characters". For a few pence extra, it was even possible to secure a "cabin" (in reality more of a cubicle) away from "prying eyes and itchy fingers". The idea that everyone was minding everyone else's business in these places is a very long way from reality; most of the inmates were focussed only on putting head to pillow to await the next day's toil.

As for seeing if people's faces were "familiar", they'd have quite a job, Jon. Anyone so arsed would need to study the chops of 400 people on a very regular basis to take into account the daily influx of itinerants.

No, a common lodging house is a very viable type of bolt hole for a killer seeking to blend into the crowd. I keep hearing about these "single rooms" that the killer was supposed to have lived in, but if we're envisaging a local killer - as most of us sensibly are - such accommodation was scarce in an overcrowded district like Whitechapel.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

If that was all the witness heard, and all the suspect said ("Will you?") doesn't it illustrate my point that some things were understood but not stated?

I'm not disputing that particular point, Caz.

I'm suggesting that there was no beating about the bush when it came to prostitutes approaching potential clients and vice versa, at least not in that environment. I'd further suggest that evasion and euphemism was even less likely to occur in a situation where both parties were well known to each other, as Hutchinson claimed was the case.

Regards,
Ben

[Michael W Richards]

Getting on the Swedish register of prostitutes was incredibly easy at the time. Not having a fixed address or having a baby out of wedlock (as Liz did) was enough to get a woman on the register. So Liz didn't necessarily have had to be a streetwalker.

C4

Liz was pregnant during that period of her life as it happens, and although it was easy to get on the register, it was notoriously difficult to get off it. One qualifier was that the application party had to provide the authorities with a confirmation of employment signed by the employer.

Liz got work as a nanny while streetwalking to survive, and her application to be stricken from the register was granted.

Liz's history demonstrates she preferred legitimate work. When it could be had, of course. That's an Unfortunate by definition...contrary to what many people interpret as a definition of a full time streetwalker.

[curious4]

I think it was more likely that she got off due to the money she inherited from her mother, thus proving that she was no longer without means, but that's a matter of interpretation.

C4