Sergeant Stephen White

[tnb]

Thanks Monty - thought it sounded like a strange juxtaposition between the White 'sighting' and Watkins' discovery of the body. Glad I wasn't missing something!

Is Dr Walker about on the boards to try to defend his somewhat odd declaration?

So thanks for the illumination Monty - That said, I guess we don't agree about White...

[Monty]

No worries tnb.

If Dr Walker wishes to appear Id gladly point out the errors in his statement.

Monty

[Johnr]

Pleased to see you reaching your own conclusions after good research Jonathan.

And keep going tnb.

It is searching like yours and Jonathan's which produces new discoveries like Andy Spallek has done, and Chris Phillips has regarding the Druitt Suspicion.

Jonathan,

I am curious when you say the description of JTR in the Steve White Dundee account is a 'steal' from the 1913 novel "The Lodger".

That is, the Steve White story uses an identical description of the killer to Mrs Belloc-Lowndes.

Can you please supply further details? Thanks.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Jonathan H]

That's just my opinion, as I read 'The Lodger' about three years ago.

Her fictional Ripper character, The Avenger, is young, clean-shaven, well-spoken, with an aquiline face and haunting eyes.

Something like that.

I was intrigued, you see, that Macnaghten refers to 'The Lodger' his cagey memoirs as a way of saying that the Ripper was a hypocritical Christian, a protean madman [eg. a chameleon] but was not motivated by religious enthusiasm, and had never been detained in an asylum.

I think he politely debunks a fictional novel [why -- it's fiction?] as a way of debunking Sims' profile, and hinting that his 'Drowned Doctor' portrait of his chum was also a tale.

Interestingly Macnaghten does not claim that the age of the Avenger, a young man, is incorrect, even though Druitt in the 'Aberconway Version', which all these writers are working from in some from, is supposedly 41.

Notice that Macnaghten aged Druitt exactly ten years to what he would have been in 1898, had he lived, the year of his un-named public debut as the 'Drowned Doctor' Super-suspect.

[Supe]

Johnr,

[1] Schwartz the witness at the Stride Inquest said the possible Ripper called out "Lipski". Anderson's report to the H.O. said that this was a local epithet addressed at Jews;

Ah, but to the very best of our knowledge and research Israel Schwartz did not testify at the Stride inquest. And it was only after much fruitless searching for Lipskis in the area did the Met accept it was an anti-semitic slur. Nor had Israel Schwartz been interviewed by the police before the GSG had been erased, so that could not have had any bearing on that decision.

Don.

[Tom_Wescott]

I believe the Dundee report to be nonsense, but it's possible that White spotted Leon Goldstein cruising along Commercial road and down Berner Street. Like Fanny Mortimer he must have wondered if he'd seen the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Johnr]

Pleased to receive some feedback to my theorising Don, thanks.

So, was the epithet "Lipski" used as a Cockney slur on Jewish denizens up east in 1888?

My linking of the Graffiti and the "Lipski" slur was designed to indicate an emerging picture.

I do not suggest Schwartz's possible sighting of the murderer who called out "Lipski", led to Warren and co. ordering the expunging of the graffiti.

Rather, I suggest the significance of the term "Lipski" was only clarified afterwards; and the fear of a violent reaction against local jews if the graffiti remained was separate.

But later, part of the emerging picture.

Sure, Warren's men acted next morning early, but I believe it was the linking of these things later, which made them realise JTR was a non-jew.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Supe]

John,

So, was the epithet "Lipski" used as a Cockney slur on Jewish denizens up east in 1888?

On November 1,1888, Inspector Abberline wrote in a memorandum:
I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of the opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

Hope this helps.

Don.

[Johnr]

Much obliged Don,

A nice crisp answer.

Quoting one Dorset man (about another Dorset man?) not far from Dorset Street.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[perrymason]

John,

So, was the epithet "Lipski" used as a Cockney slur on Jewish denizens up east in 1888?

On November 1,1888, Inspector Abberline wrote in a memorandum:
I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of the opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

Hope this helps.

Don.

Which suggests that if Schwartz is a witness to be believed, despite the lack of any hard evidence of him attending the Stride Inquest, then Broadshouldered Man is most probably a Gentile. I know the strains between Orthodox and Reformed that were going on.....but I dont believe the first insult to come to the mind of a Jew to say to another Jew would be an anti-semetic slur.

That would mean that Israel was for sure not the witness used to identify the incarcerated Jew as alleged...we assume it was either Lawende or perhaps Schwartz. Because BSM was not likely Jewish. And it is assumed Jack the Ripper was.

And so enters Michael Kidney perhaps...if this occurred as stated by the witness in his interview.

Best regards

[Debra A]

So, was the epithet "Lipski" used as a Cockney slur on Jewish denizens up east in 1888?

Hi all,
I just wanted to add a little something here that may or may not be relevant.

The only instance of the word 'Lipski' being used as an insult [that admittedly came to court] I could find in contemporary press reports, was the word being used by a man with the very Jewish sounding name of Myer Jacoby, and described as 'a foreigner' against a man named Philip Solomons, another Jewish sounding name and another 'foreigner'.
Jacoby assaulted Solomons, and both he and his wife used the word Lipski as an insult more than once when Solomons came up to Jacoby's workshop and began calling Jacoby's daughter 'bad names' and slapping her around the face.
Solomons was a married man who had been abusing Jacoby's daughter in all ways.

Maybe also a term used for abusers of women?
Debs

[Johnr]

Thanks Debs, Michael and Tom,

I am sure others have discussed the linking of the Graffiti with the "Lipski" slur. On the old boards probably.

But I am pleased my remarks have teased out some cogent and interesting
observations.

My only worry is that I might be leading people off-topic.

I don't know what to make of references to Michael Kidney, and Tom's Berner street linkings.

But I do like Debs' point that not only Gentiles used the term "Lipski".

I think that is very relevant, and should be placed on the other threads also, which deal with Elizabeth Stride and so forth.

So much good stuff gets lost, and is so-o-o hard to locate later.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Debra A]

Thanks John,
I'll take your advice and post the relevant clippings on a Stride thread.

[perrymason]

That is an interesting find Deb, and I wonder whether in those cases a sub-class connotation might be suggested....as in affiliated and orthodox working Jews speaking to immigrant unemployed reformers?

I realize your press counters what I suggested a few posts back, but I dont believe that BSM can be categorized as being Jewish from what we know... so we may still just be dealing with anti-semetism, Gentile to Jew. Not totally unrelated may be some writing that suggests the same as well...in part due to the misspelling of the very word Jews.

All the best

[tnb]

'perry'

Bear in mind the acknowledged antagonism between certain Jewish groups in the East End at the time, for instance related to the International...club; I can't find a reference for that right now but it was mentioned by Paul Begg and Chris Scott in the 'progress' Rippercast a while back, and I'm (more or less) willing to take them on trust. To refresh any memories, it was regarding a break between the socialist and non-socialist Jews, and also the fact that the former were holding meetings on a Sunday (which actually seems a bit of an odd objection, seeing as the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday).

I'm not suggesting that the 'Lipski' incident necessarily suggests a link to the Club, but I think this shows that there were factions within the Jewish community - if there was dissent about the Club then the chances are that there were many other issues that divided the community. Unfortunately many of which we may never know at this remove.

The idea that all Jews were united in their opinions, behaviours etc is reflected in much of the press from the time, but it is actually more than anything reflective of a general bias. It's a bit like suggesting all Englishmen or Welshmen or Americans will agree at all times. People will naturally gravitate towards their own when in a 'strange' country, but that doesn't mean that within this (from the outside) close group there won't necessarily be as many factions as in the average street.

Well done Debs for the finding of the reference to Lipski as a 'Jew on Jew' insult as well, a bit like 'Uncle Tom' perhaps? (in use, not inference). This certainly puts a new perspective on BSM, and blows away one of the many assumptions about the case.

Long - LONG LONG LONG!!! - shot, but I wonder if anyone has looked into whether the misspelling may actually have been an insult in itself? ie. referring to a group who were ' not real "Jews" ' ????