New Article on the Swanson Marginalia in Ripperologist 128

[Chris]

And when Abberline was working on the case, on the ground, he must have known about the Polish Jew theory.. which he later denounced as rubbish..without a scrap of evidence, I believe.

Can you quote the statement of Abberline's that you're referring to, please? I'm not sure it's clear that he did denounce the Polish Jew theory.

[Phil Carter]

Can you quote the statement of Abberline's that you're referring to, please? I'm not sure it's clear that he did denounce the Polish Jew theory.

Hello Chris,

"Scotland Yard is really no wiser on the subject than it was fifteen years ago."

1903.

Err, Unless I am mistaken, it would include all activity between 1888 and 1903 from which he draws his comments. Ipso facto, all evidence against a Polish Jew, if there was any, was known to him.

One cant say something in 1903 stating that SY is no wiser than it was 15 years ago, when it obviously wasn't wise at all on the subject of the murderer at that time, without knowing the ins and outs subsequent to 1888 and up to 1903.

Ipso facto Abberline is stating that he is in knowledge of what SY knows and what they don't. Otherwise Abberline is guessing or merely opining without knowledge.. and we have no indication of that being the case.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

In addition..

Hello Chris,

In addition to the last post (pardon the pun).. I quote Martin Fido on the role of Abberline, from 2008, in reply to a question starting a new thread about the role of Abberline. (http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=33)


"Abberline was head of the Whitechapel CID (H Diviusion) for many years, and had been transferred to Scotland Yard some time before the Ripper case began. When it proved difficult, and fell between two Divisions initially, (H Whitechapel and J Bethnal Green) Abberline was sent back to the East End where he outranked the Divisional CID heads and (presumably) united the detective investigation. Abberline would then appear to have been the principal liaison between the detectives on the ground and Scotland Yard, where Swanson was the desk officer who collated all the information that came in. Abberline was sent to make important arrests and to investigate things like the "missing" medical student. He interviewed important witnesses like Schwartz. His own account of giving sixpences to prostitutes on the streets at night so that they could go to the safety of lodging houses suggests that he did some personal detective patrolling."
-Martin Fido.

If he interviewed important witnesses..... then all aspects of a Polish Jew investigation would have included Abberline, if done whilst he was working on the case. I surmise.

Just an thought.

best wishes

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

In a March 1903 Pall Mall Gazette interview Abberline poured cold water on the drowned doctor theory.

Also—

"I know," continued the well-known detective, "that it has been stated in several quarters that 'Jack the Ripper' was a man who died in a lunatic asylum a few years ago, but there is nothing at all of a tangible nature to support such a theory."

Abberline may have been referencing either Kosminski or Cutbush, although neither of these men died until after his newspaper interview.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hello Simon,

Thanks for the quote. I was about to add that bit too and comment upon it.

By the way, have we ever found out where Abberline was living in 1888? 1891 Clapham, I know.. but 1888? Just curious.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Swanson was in such a position that all related correspondence ran through him.

Abberline was not.

Ipso facto Swanson was in a better position to pass comment than Abberline.

Monty

[Chris]

In a March 1903 Pall Mall Gazette interview Abberline poured cold water on the drowned doctor theory.

Also—

"I know," continued the well-known detective, "that it has been stated in several quarters that 'Jack the Ripper' was a man who died in a lunatic asylum a few years ago, but there is nothing at all of a tangible nature to support such a theory."

Abberline may have been referencing either Kosminski or Cutbush, although neither of these men died until after his newspaper interview.

Thanks. That's actually what I thought Phil might be referring to, but I wanted to check before commenting.

As you say, it's not obvious which "lunatic asylum" theory it refers to. Another possibility, in which it had previously been claimed that the suspect was dead, is the insane medical student theory (vintage 1895):

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3934

Strangely enough, that theory was circulated only a few months before Swanson was referred to in the Pall Mall Gazette as having a theory that the Ripper was a man "who is now dead".

[Phil Carter]

Thanks. That's actually what I thought Phil might be referring to, but I wanted to check before commenting.

As you say, it's not obvious which "lunatic asylum" theory it refers to. Another possibility, in which it had previously been claimed that the suspect was dead, is the insane medical student theory (vintage 1895):

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3934

Strangely enough, that theory was circulated only a few months before Swanson was referred to in the Pall Mall Gazette as having a theory that the Ripper was a man "who is now dead".

my empahsis,

Hello Chris,

Yes, I had the quote in mind but wanted to use the other ones first, as explained above. to make other connecting points.

What HAS intruiged me is that emphasised comment. I honestly hadn't thought about that connection.

Because if Swanson IS making that comment and it IS referring to the dead medical student...can Swanson's making the "dead" mistake in the annotations possibly be him mixing these two specific suspect ideas?


best wishes

Phil

[AdamNeilWood]

In a March 1903 Pall Mall Gazette interview...

"I know," continued the well-known detective, "that it has been stated in several quarters that 'Jack the Ripper' was a man who died in a lunatic asylum a few years ago, but there is nothing at all of a tangible nature to support such a theory."

Which 'several quarters' would these have been?

Best wishes
Adam

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil,

I have no idea of Abberline's 1888 pre-Clapham address, but it is strangely telling that he didn't merit an entry in Swanson's address book until he moved to Bournemouth in 1903/4.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

I have no idea of Abberline's 1888 pre-Clapham address, but it is strangely telling that he didn't merit an entry in Swanson's address book until he moved to Bournemouth in 1903/4.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

Many thanks... yes.. not on the Christmas Card list then?

best wishes

Phil

[Chris]

Because if Swanson IS making that comment and it IS referring to the dead medical student...can Swanson's making the "dead" mistake in the annotations possibly be him mixing these two specific suspect ideas?

I think it's plausible enough that two Ripper suspects in asylums could be confused.

Perhaps George Sims's later statement that the Polish Jew suspect "had at one time been employed in a hospital in Poland" could also be thrown into the mix. It's all extremely speculative, of course.

We seem to have got almost back on topic.

[PaulB]

The way I look at it, if we are going to call him any kind of suspect at all today, we have to base it on what we know today. And what we do know (or not)makes him a weak suspect now, IMHO of course.

Hi Abby,
I'm sorry but we can't do that. Our ignorance of past events doesn't give us the right to discount the words of those who tell us the little we know.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Nor do I dismiss that this violence amounts to a chair wielded against a Colney Hatch official. Nor do I dismiss that the REST of the written evidence we have, does not involve any further violence at all. A threat of violence is not violence in itself, and even that threat was a singular occurrence, as far as we know. We may conclude that apart from these two incidents, one of violence, and one of a threat about it, Aaron Kosminskis records show a man not given to violence in any sort or shape over a period of many, many years.

I take it you haven't read them.

"At times excited & violent." "Requires constant attention" "Excitable: troublesome at times" "Very excitable at times"

And consider that in the book you haven't read Rob goes to great length to discuss Victorian treatment plans for the mentally ill: sedate them into a stupor. So getting all excited is impressive in the first place.

He takes a knife to a woman - no big deal because he didn't cut her. And it's only his sister, not a stranger.

Violent "at times" - no problem. Everyone knows Aaron Kosminski wouldn't hurt a fly even though he was almost certainly a paranoid schizophrenic experiencing command style hallucinations, and at times very excitable and violent".

[Abby Normal]

I know what you mean, but he's not a weak suspect. He can't be. We know next to nothing about why he was suspected, so how on earth can we judge whether he's strong or weak? All we can say is how people back then thought of him.

Hi Paul

We know next to nothing about why he was suspected, so how on earth can we judge whether he's strong or weak?

My emphasis.

So Rob is also incorrect when he says? :

I also think that today, we as historians must still consider Kozminski as a strong suspect in the Ripper case