New Article on the Swanson Marginalia in Ripperologist 128

[Phil H]

I guarrantee I have more of a mindset than you on 19th century personnel.My grandfather was born in the 1860's,as was my grandmother.My parents were born before the turn of the century,as were various aunts and uncles.Their friends were also of that era,and some were public servants,and even policemen.

Wow!!! harry!!1 you mean you've dicovered we all have ...ancestors!!

My schoolteachers,were ,in the majority ,from that era.Our lives overlapped by a great many years,and let me tell you,with small exceptions,they were no different whatsoever,than people today.

Then you must be VERY unperceptive, harry. Even in the 1950s people had a very different outlook and ethos from today.

Phil H

[harry]

Wow !!! Phil!!! and maybe the advice you gave to ministers contributed to the state the countriy's in today.You Bewdy!

[Chris]

On the one hand, we have family folklore, and on the other we have the marginalia. If there's a contradiction between the two, is it really hard to decide which to go with?

I really don't think there is any contradiction between the two. The family information is simply that "after he had retired in 1903", when some members of his family tried to get the name of DSS's suspect out of him, he refused to tell them. (And for all we know the family members concerned could have been his younger children, who were only teenagers when he retired.) I don't believe that writing it down for his own use, perhaps years later, would be inconsistent with that.

And after all, the idea that there's an inconsistency comes from some people's interpretations of something Jim Swanson said. But if there's one thing that's absolutely clear, it's that Jim Swanson believed that 'Kosminski' was DSS's chosen suspect. So Jim Swanson himself saw no inconsistency in DSS writing down the name of his suspect.

[Sally]

Hello Sally,

With all respect, seriously, any person expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Kosminski, identified suspect, pointed out as the murderer, incarcerated for the rest of his days, is ignored by the rest of the police force, from top to bottom bar two, as they merrily carry on looking for the Whitechapel Murderer..and all the time only Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson know that Kosminski is the Ripper, and carry on the fascade with that singular knowledge inside them? I am sorry but it beggars belief, pushing boundaries of known procedure...all for the sake of a nonentity that means nothing to almost everyone.. and that these two intrepid policemen know the truth the rest of the Metropolitan Police Force, the City Police Force, every politician, journalist and rag, tag and bobtail are in the height of hunger for such knowledge...and the search is going on in broad daylight for Jack the Ripper long, long after Kosminski is put away in a loony bin? And Swanson is STILL part of the hunt?

I say again.. any policeman expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer as DSS does, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. In the absence of another man named Kosminski...the answer is obvious... DSS is simply filling in Anderson's story.

DSS' direct work in the case clearly runs against the incarceration of this Kosminski being the murderer.......Oh..and so does Macnagthen's, and Reids, and Littlechild's, and just about every other policeman involved in the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer after Kosminski's incarceration.

Please explain to me why, if Swanson and Anderson both knew of the incarceration of Kosminski, ipso facto the "id parade" before it, why the hunt for the Whitechapel murderer continued when a Cheif Inspector and the Assistant Commissioner knew it was a closed case? And ONLY those two....


best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil

Thanks for your reply, which by now I think other posters have answered quite well.

I see your point, yet at the same time, to my mind it does appear that Swanson may have believed that Kosminski was the Ripper. How do we explain this given the facts? Well, there are obviously gaps in our knowledge - often the case when things don't seem to add up. Perhaps, as I'm sure others have suggested, the operation to identify Kosminski at the Seaside Home was covert - that seems feasible given what we do know of it (which is little enough).

Of course, even if we accept that DSS considered Kosminski to have been the Ripper, we don't (yet) know the context of his suspect status, which makes it a little difficult for us to judge how viable that conclusion was.

There are very many 'whys' in this case, not least with regard to the marginalia.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I really don't think there is any contradiction between the two. The family information is simply that "after he had retired in 1903", when some members of his family tried to get the name of DSS's suspect out of him, he refused to tell them. (And for all we know the family members concerned could have been his younger children, who were only teenagers when he retired.) I don't believe that writing it down for his own use, perhaps years later, would be inconsistent with that.

And after all, the idea that there's an inconsistency comes from some people's interpretations of something Jim Swanson said. But if there's one thing that's absolutely clear, it's that Jim Swanson believed that 'Kosminski' was DSS's chosen suspect. So Jim Swanson himself saw no inconsistency in DSS writing down the name of his suspect.

Well there's one thing: the family could have beefed it up by saying they told him it was Kosminski.

My personal view is that Swanson's Marganalia is unwavering in that 'murderer would have hanged'. It follows that Kosminski was unlikely to have been merely a 'viable suspect' in Swanson's mind: either he knew nothing about the ID and therefore Kosminski was someone else's suspect; but, as others have pointed out, Swanson was the operational head and so it seems unlikely, or Kosminski was the murderer as far as Swanson was concerned.

I think Swanson was convinced that Kosminski was Jack. The question is: was he right to be convined?

In terms of Swanson not wanting to give the name to his family: it's difficult to see a clear, viable purpose in this. But then, every person decides what he thinks is a good idea - and Swanson was from a certain background. When pressed, I would guess that being a mason, with all its inherent secrecy and loyalty to the group, would have influenced this; as would his loyalty to the police force - after all, he wasn't the only way to not 'tell tales out of school' - Sagar, Cox, Anderson et al did not name their suspect - seems to be a pattern there.

[Jenni Shelden]

Hello Sally,

With all respect, seriously, any person expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. Are you seriously trying to tell us that Kosminski, identified suspect, pointed out as the murderer, incarcerated for the rest of his days, is ignored by the rest of the police force, from top to bottom bar two, as they merrily carry on looking for the Whitechapel Murderer..and all the time only Sir Robert Anderson and Donald Swanson know that Kosminski is the Ripper, and carry on the fascade with that singular knowledge inside them? I am sorry but it beggars belief, pushing boundaries of known procedure...all for the sake of a nonentity that means nothing to almost everyone.. and that these two intrepid policemen know the truth the rest of the Metropolitan Police Force, the City Police Force, every politician, journalist and rag, tag and bobtail are in the height of hunger for such knowledge...and the search is going on in broad daylight for Jack the Ripper long, long after Kosminski is put away in a loony bin? And Swanson is STILL part of the hunt?

I say again.. any policeman expressing such distinct knowledge of the alleged murderer as DSS does, cannot be writing from the perspective of his personal role and involvement, in the case when both he and the police force as a whole, are still clearly looking for Jack The Ripper well beyond the incarceration of Aaron Kosminski. In the absence of another man named Kosminski...the answer is obvious... DSS is simply filling in Anderson's story.

DSS' direct work in the case clearly runs against the incarceration of this Kosminski being the murderer.......Oh..and so does Macnagthen's, and Reids, and Littlechild's, and just about every other policeman involved in the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer after Kosminski's incarceration.

Please explain to me why, if Swanson and Anderson both knew of the incarceration of Kosminski, ipso facto the "id parade" before it, why the hunt for the Whitechapel murderer continued when a Cheif Inspector and the Assistant Commissioner knew it was a closed case? And ONLY those two....


best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil,

i understand what you are however, with all due respect, if the police thought kosminski was the Ripper, they themsevles say they could not commit him to trial as the witness would not comply, therefore there was no conviction. Surely they had to keep the investigation open. Who knows what thye were looking for?

Jenni

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Phil,

i understand what you are however, with all due respect, if the police thought kosminski was the Ripper, they themsevles say they could not commit him to trial as the witness would not comply, therefore there was no conviction. Surely they had to keep the investigation open. Who knows what thye were looking for?

Jenni

Clearly they did not have enough on him to get him into a court of law and have him shipped off to Broadmoor.

From this there seems to be a contradiction: Swanson and Anderson were convinced they had their man, but they needed the witness to cement it. It follows that what they actually had on him is a conundrum: enough to be convinced, but not enough to convict.

The only feasible answer that I can come up with is that they thought he was a decent suspect, but no more, when they took him to the ID. But that which the witness saw left no room for doubt; which would rule out Lawende, and leave open the possibility of Schwartz.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Wrong thread! Many apologies.

[Phil H]

Perhaps reverse engineering is what is required here.

Maybe we could all think through what situations could have arisen whereby a SINGLE Jewish witness, recognising and being recognised by AK, could have been of sufficient weight to prove him guilty and thus hang him?

If we can work out the possible circumstances for that to happen conjecture though it may be, it might throw some light on what DSS was saying in the marginalia.

Thinking caps on folks.

I have suggested one option in the other current AK thread.

Phil H

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jen, Sally, Abby, Phil H, all,

So let me get this right.. just for the point of balance...

1) According to some, Anderson and Swanson may have been doing some sort of covert operation, unbeknown to the rest of the main players in the Met Police.

2) They completed the operation, were convinced that the suspect was the murderer, and let him go back to his family because the witness refused to id him as he was a fellow Jew.

3) After a while, the family of this Jew thought him to be dangerous, and had him committed to an asylum.

4) He stayed in the asylum system until 1919, nearly 20 years later, when he died.

5) Meanwhile, back at the ranch..sorry, Scotland Yard, the hunt for the killer continues. In this hunt, D S Swanson takes part, believing, in the case of one murderered woman, that the suspect who was arrested for the Francis Coles murder, is Jack the Ripper. This murderer is not named Kosminski, please note.

6) Despite knowing that Anderson has yet to publically announce any favourite suspect, despite Swanson's own involvement in the continual hunt, despite all the other main players either denouncing of producing other theories and or suspects or stories that nobody had a clue, two of the players, totally unconnected job-wise at this point in time, continue as if nothing has happened and JTR still must be caught.

7) Only these two knew of this apparent covert operation. Nobody ever talked of accompanying the suspect 60 miles to attend an id to willingly be identified as Jack the Ripper.

8) Nobody ever talked about accompanying Jack the Ripper (now identified), back to London and dropping him off with a slap on the back and "we're watching you sunshine".

9) At no point did the police try to get this super mad maniac put away into an asylum...despite doing things totally unlawfully to get him id'd..they can't make up one story to get this nutter shut away in an asylum.. oh no.. now they play everything by the book and wait for the family to get him sectioned away, for threatening with a knife, apparently.

10) This absolute nobody is now kept quiet. Nobody in the Met Police Force who is told of or knows of the Polish Jew Story confirms it, because either the Anderson story is littered with holes, the Swanson back up story is full of holes, things that cannot be proven rule throughout, and a complete lack of belief in it is given by all those who have heard of the story.

11) The two people who WOULD know what happened to JTR do not agree either..Abberline and Reid, One says another suspect, the other says that nobody had a clue about the Ripper's identity.

12) Meanwhile, back at the Swanson family Home, DSS annotates some marginalia at some time between 1910 and 1924, in Anderson's memoirs of his life in the Force. He states that a person called Kosminski is the suspect Anderson is talking about.

13) His family claim that DSS wouldn't have revealed the name of the killer to them at any cost, yet he nonchalently/cleverly writes this Kosminski name in a book that is only by sheer chance looked at some 55 years or so after DSS died.

14) There is no name given to the place the proposed id of the man took place. It was first suggested by a researching expert in the 1980's. There is no evidence to suggest this place was used for any identification.

15) Any known procedural ID in regards to the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer has been in the East End itself at Police Stations. Not at a Police Rest Home 60 miles away.

16) The witness who id'd the suspect may have been one of two. One of them didnt see the face and the other is doubtful.

17) The man who wrote the marginalia and annotations, gets some of the details wrong, confusing the known facts.

18) D S Swanson was apparently chasing down a bperson that didn't exist after Aaron Kosminski's incarceration...i.e. The Whitechapel murderer. (Because he knew that the murderer had already been locked away)

19) It is suggested that Swanson didn't fully KNOW Kosminski was the killer until later on in his life (see one of the previous postings today/yesterday)...which doesn't make sense because of the certainty of the Swanson statement and the certainty of the Anderson statement...they both would have been certain as soon as the suspect was positively identified... they don't need 20 years top make up their mind on the subject.

20) In conjunction with (18), in 1910, Anderson produces a book claiming that the suspect who he believed was the murderer, was the murderer claiming this as a fact, ascertained..i.e. PROVEN. Anderson's claim is water tight.. no room for doubt. That means it was water tight WHEN IT HAPPENED.At the end of the ID.

21) Aaron Kosminski, the man himself, had already been dismissed in 1987 by Martin Fido as the applicable Kosminski, saying that any such suspect Anderson describes must have another name. This is directly countered by the comment in the annotations.."Kosminski was the suspect".

22) Aaron Kosminski was never prosecuted for anything other than a misdemeanour... walking an un-muzzled dog. There is no record, either in any asylum nor police file, of any known violence connected to Aaron Kosminski acted upon women, apart from once threatening a woman with a knife. We do not know the details of this alleged incident. We do not know what type of knife this was either.

23) There are claims that Kosminski files have been lost. This is unprovable and conjecture. There could be a file on someone's Great Grandfather that has been lost. Because it isnt there doesn't mean there is a chance there was one based on what we know.


24) Conversely, the Polish Suspect was Anderson's boasting story, because he rated himself above being beaten by criminals, owing to his "moral guilt" certainty get out clause. He had a very dodgy attitude towards the Jewish Race, and claimed that the murderer was a Polish Jew of low life level. When the claim was made.. nobody stood up and shouted Hurrah! Solved at last!...except Anderson.

25) Then along comes the Swanson Marginalia that shows very clearly that Swanson is writing to expand on Anderson's story. DSS cannot be writing from personal experience as he has already been known to try and nail another person, i.e. the suspect proposed of murdering Francis Coles, as JTR.

Now if Swanson was proposing Sadler as JTR, privately... I could believe it. But not Kosminski. That's Anderson's suspect, and his alone imho.

And that is just SOME of the doubt surrounding this "Kosminski" fellow.



The History of the Marginalia has opened up this subject properly. The Swanson family are to be thouroughly thanked from us all. PI won't be surprised if more revelations suddenly turn up. I am sure that this subject may have been written about and discussed within the family quite often. The Swanson family are still sorting through family papers. I genuinely look forward to more news.

However, without finding a thoroughly explanitary letter written by DSS himeself regarding this whole business, which would go against all we know of the man and his character, then we are left with what we have.

My apologies on beforehand for any historically inaccuracies in the above.
Humanum errare est. I acknowledge them on beforehand.

best wishes

Phil

[Fleetwood Mac]

The problem with all of that Phil is:

1) Macnaghten claimed something like: "there were many circumstances surrounding Kosminski that made his a strong suspect".

"Many circumstances", "strong suspect".

2) Anderson claims it was a definitely ascertained fact that he was a Polish Jew and he had been positively identified.

3) Swanson writes that he was identified, he knew he'd been identified, the murderer would have hanged in the event the witness had given evidence.

Now, there are obvious problems.

But, these obvious problems do not negate the fact that we have three very senior police officers believing either there were many circumstances to make him a strong suspect, he would have hanged or it was a definitely ascertained fact.

Now that is pretty strong stuff.

Whatever the problems regarding who exactly was this Kosminski; when exactly he was identified; where exactly the ID took place; who exactly was the witness; when exactly he died - it is inescapable that Kosminski was highly favoured by these three men.

It seems to me that, broadly speaking, there are two options from here:

1) Believe that they must have been mistaken, or confused, or they deliberately misled because some of the particulars around the main event do not fit with what we know - emphasis on what we know as opposed to do not possibly fit regardless of our reliance on part of the jigsaw of information.

or

2) Accept that he was a highly favoured suspect who was picked out in an ID, while attempting to reconcile the supporting particulars, even though it seems a bridge too far at this stage.

I know which one seems most reasonable to me. Ultimately, there are a few untidy loose ends, but the main proposition is agreed upon by 3 senior police officers.

[Phil H]

Good, balanced post FM. I reserve my position, but you summarise elements of it well.

Phil C

By contrast, your long post loses something for me by it's tone. I am far from having answers, but I am trying to wrestle with what we have to understand what was going on. Something must have been.

As FM says if THREE senior officials were of a view that someone named Kosminski was a strong suspect, then we would be well-advised to take it seriously.

MM, Sir RA and Dss had access to and were familiar with the information available at the time, and could talk personally to individuals such as AK, or others who had. Whatever information has been lost, pilfered or retained, we certainly have less than they did. So our first port of call for any confusion should be that we are misreading things, NOT necessarily that THEY were wrong. Just my approach.

23) There are claims that Kosminski files have been lost. This is unprovable and conjecture. There could be a file on someone's Great Grandfather that has been lost. Because it isnt there doesn't mean there is a chance there was one based on what we know.

I certainly have never said that any specific file has been lost. But we KNOW suspect files have gone missing in recent decades (seen by researchers in the 1970s gone now - see the Ultimate); we KNOW files have been routinely destroyed or lost. We know purloined material was returned in the 1980s (photos and reports). So material HAS gone. the fact that we have nothing on Kosminski, or Tumblety for that matter, could be because it was destroyed (the most unlikely option, I think), purloined or withheld - someone was posting about DPP files a day or two ago.

Only these two knew of this apparent covert operation. Nobody ever talked of accompanying the suspect 60 miles to attend an id to willingly be identified as Jack the Ripper.

There are many aspects of the case for which we have little or no corroboration. But we do know that DSS's assertion that CITY CID watched Kosminski's house is in part borne out by Cox's story. We knew nothing of an ID until Swanson gave us the details (not enough maybe - but why invent them?).

The onus is on us to understand a prime source, NOT ridicule it.

Phil H



Phil H

[Abby Normal]

Hello Jen, Sally, Abby, Phil H, all,

So let me get this right.. just for the point of balance...

1) According to some, Anderson and Swanson may have been doing some sort of covert operation, unbeknown to the rest of the main players in the Met Police.

2) They completed the operation, were convinced that the suspect was the murderer, and let him go back to his family because the witness refused to id him as he was a fellow Jew.

3) After a while, the family of this Jew thought him to be dangerous, and had him committed to an asylum.

4) He stayed in the asylum system until 1919, nearly 20 years later, when he died.

5) Meanwhile, back at the ranch..sorry, Scotland Yard, the hunt for the killer continues. In this hunt, D S Swanson takes part, believing, in the case of one murderered woman, that the suspect who was arrested for the Francis Coles murder, is Jack the Ripper. This murderer is not named Kosminski, please note.

6) Despite knowing that Anderson has yet to publically announce any favourite suspect, despite Swanson's own involvement in the continual hunt, despite all the other main players either denouncing of producing other theories and or suspects or stories that nobody had a clue, two of the players, totally unconnected job-wise at this point in time, continue as if nothing has happened and JTR still must be caught.

7) Only these two knew of this apparent covert operation. Nobody ever talked of accompanying the suspect 60 miles to attend an id to willingly be identified as Jack the Ripper.

8) Nobody ever talked about accompanying Jack the Ripper (now identified), back to London and dropping him off with a slap on the back and "we're watching you sunshine".

9) At no point did the police try to get this super mad maniac put away into an asylum...despite doing things totally unlawfully to get him id'd..they can't make up one story to get this nutter shut away in an asylum.. oh no.. now they play everything by the book and wait for the family to get him sectioned away, for threatening with a knife, apparently.

10) This absolute nobody is now kept quiet. Nobody in the Met Police Force who is told of or knows of the Polish Jew Story confirms it, because either the Anderson story is littered with holes, the Swanson back up story is full of holes, things that cannot be proven rule throughout, and a complete lack of belief in it is given by all those who have heard of the story.

11) The two people who WOULD know what happened to JTR do not agree either..Abberline and Reid, One says another suspect, the other says that nobody had a clue about the Ripper's identity.

12) Meanwhile, back at the Swanson family Home, DSS annotates some marginalia at some time between 1910 and 1924, in Anderson's memoirs of his life in the Force. He states that a person called Kosminski is the suspect Anderson is talking about.

13) His family claim that DSS wouldn't have revealed the name of the killer to them at any cost, yet he nonchalently/cleverly writes this Kosminski name in a book that is only by sheer chance looked at some 55 years or so after DSS died.

14) There is no name given to the place the proposed id of the man took place. It was first suggested by a researching expert in the 1980's. There is no evidence to suggest this place was used for any identification.

15) Any known procedural ID in regards to the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer has been in the East End itself at Police Stations. Not at a Police Rest Home 60 miles away.

16) The witness who id'd the suspect may have been one of two. One of them didnt see the face and the other is doubtful.

17) The man who wrote the marginalia and annotations, gets some of the details wrong, confusing the known facts.

18) D S Swanson was apparently chasing down a bperson that didn't exist after Aaron Kosminski's incarceration...i.e. The Whitechapel murderer. (Because he knew that the murderer had already been locked away)

19) It is suggested that Swanson didn't fully KNOW Kosminski was the killer until later on in his life (see one of the previous postings today/yesterday)...which doesn't make sense because of the certainty of the Swanson statement and the certainty of the Anderson statement...they both would have been certain as soon as the suspect was positively identified... they don't need 20 years top make up their mind on the subject.

20) In conjunction with (18), in 1910, Anderson produces a book claiming that the suspect who he believed was the murderer, was the murderer claiming this as a fact, ascertained..i.e. PROVEN. Anderson's claim is water tight.. no room for doubt. That means it was water tight WHEN IT HAPPENED.At the end of the ID.

21) Aaron Kosminski, the man himself, had already been dismissed in 1987 by Martin Fido as the applicable Kosminski, saying that any such suspect Anderson describes must have another name. This is directly countered by the comment in the annotations.."Kosminski was the suspect".

22) Aaron Kosminski was never prosecuted for anything other than a misdemeanour... walking an un-muzzled dog. There is no record, either in any asylum nor police file, of any known violence connected to Aaron Kosminski acted upon women, apart from once threatening a woman with a knife. We do not know the details of this alleged incident. We do not know what type of knife this was either.

23) There are claims that Kosminski files have been lost. This is unprovable and conjecture. There could be a file on someone's Great Grandfather that has been lost. Because it isnt there doesn't mean there is a chance there was one based on what we know.


24) Conversely, the Polish Suspect was Anderson's boasting story, because he rated himself above being beaten by criminals, owing to his "moral guilt" certainty get out clause. He had a very dodgy attitude towards the Jewish Race, and claimed that the murderer was a Polish Jew of low life level. When the claim was made.. nobody stood up and shouted Hurrah! Solved at last!...except Anderson.

25) Then along comes the Swanson Marginalia that shows very clearly that Swanson is writing to expand on Anderson's story. DSS cannot be writing from personal experience as he has already been known to try and nail another person, i.e. the suspect proposed of murdering Francis Coles, as JTR.

Now if Swanson was proposing Sadler as JTR, privately... I could believe it. But not Kosminski. That's Anderson's suspect, and his alone imho.

And that is just SOME of the doubt surrounding this "Kosminski" fellow.



The History of the Marginalia has opened up this subject properly. The Swanson family are to be thouroughly thanked from us all. PI won't be surprised if more revelations suddenly turn up. I am sure that this subject may have been written about and discussed within the family quite often. The Swanson family are still sorting through family papers. I genuinely look forward to more news.

However, without finding a thoroughly explanitary letter written by DSS himeself regarding this whole business, which would go against all we know of the man and his character, then we are left with what we have.

My apologies on beforehand for any historically inaccuracies in the above.
Humanum errare est. I acknowledge them on beforehand.

best wishes

Phil

Hi Phil
Sure there are alot of little mysteries surrounding the whole kosminski episode but if you just step back and look at it big picture there really is no (to me anyway) BIG MYSTERY.

He was simply a suspect (albeit a strong suspect) at the time. With the passage of time and the ripper never being caught/convicted, Kosminski became in their minds the ripper-more so in Andersons obviously.


Now for the small questions:
How did he come to the polices attention?-probably from the family and/or a doctor at the workhouse. The knife incident was probably the catalyst.

Why the Seaside home? Well he was not under arrest so if they wanted to set up an ID you can see the "with difficulty" part. For whatever reason they felt the seaside home was the best place to set this up.

Who was the witness?Probably Lawende, possibly Scwartz.

Why didn't they arrest him after the ID? Because witness would not swear to it. And theres issue with his sanity. But they had him watched. And then later he is safely caged in an aylum anyway.


To address some of your specific points:
No this was not some "covert" operation-at least in that it was only carried out and known by Anderson and Swanson, as MM knew about it and also considered Kos a suspect.

Re Swanson and Sadler-Sadler was never convicted of Coles Murder let alone any of the others, and his whereabouts of the other murders cleared him,I beleive. So Swanson may have thought he was a strong suspect early on, but changed his mind.

I think alot of the mystery people struggle with is that they have a hard time grappling with the fact that as time progresses,people's memory change, wishful thinking is involved, egos are involved, people change there mind about things etc.

The whole thing can simply be explained by Kos only being a strong suspect at the time, and with time, and no other man being nailed as the ripper, becoming the Ripper in their minds.

As in, "yup, it was him after all".

[Jenni Shelden]

Clearly they did not have enough on him to get him into a court of law and have him shipped off to Broadmoor.

From this there seems to be a contradiction: Swanson and Anderson were convinced they had their man, but they needed the witness to cement it. It follows that what they actually had on him is a conundrum: enough to be convinced, but not enough to convict.

The only feasible answer that I can come up with is that they thought he was a decent suspect, but no more, when they took him to the ID. But that which the witness saw left no room for doubt; which would rule out Lawende, and leave open the possibility of Schwartz.

Hi Fleetwood,
in a court of law they would need a case that could convict the defendant beyond reasonable doubt. It seems clear from what Anderson and DSS say about Kosminski they didnt have an identification because the witness didnt formally ID the suspect ie Kosminski. I dont think this tells us anything about the suspect other than that he or she was probably Jewish. It doesnt say how an eye witness they were likely to be. It just tells us they saw the Ripper and would have ID'd Kosminski if he werent Jewish. As this is what is said in the Marginalia/book. Presumably for whatever reason Anderson and DSS were sure this was the Ripper - either due to what this witness said to the police - or - perhaps more likely - due to ome other information - now lost - that led the police to take this witness to ID this suspect at some considerable cost.

I always felt sorry for the police as without DNA, fingerprinting, blood typing and so on, they had much less to go on in terms of non - circumstantial evidence. Eye witness testimony is part of this. For whatever reason this eye witness did not ID Kosminski.

I dont think as i said it tells us who the witness was. We have plenty to go on and equally not much. They didnt just go to ID Ksominski out of everyone in London for no reason i would hasten a guess.

BTW, I dont think he was necessarily the Ripper

Jenni

[Phil H]

PC Robert Sagar is well known as having a suspect.

He was a City PC, I believe - and Harry Cox said City CID staked-out a house in a Jewish area of Met territory. This could confirm DSS's statement in the marginalia.

Sagar evidently retired to Brighton - did he have earlier connections there?

The Seaside Home is in Brighton.

Are there connections here we are not seeing?

Phil H